Pure class.
Foley on golf channel
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Pure class.
Richie3Jack
New
there is no doubt that his current swing looks different and it is safe to attribute that to foley's influence.
i guess my point is that changing swing is one thing, but winning, another.
tiger knows how to win prior to this period with foley, unlike many, many other players. (teaching how to win is much more elusive than teaching how to swing)
tiger is a very unique case. because of that, i would like to be conservative to give foley too much credit at this juncture.
i believe that tiger can win with many other types of swing and many other types of coaching. he is just that talented. my opinion is that he is that type of rare breed that can help define a teacher, not the other way around.
i hope he wins tomorrow. he deserves a big break!
For sure, LeadyB was defined by Faldo. NO question that it was the other way round. If Faldo had not gone to him he would be running a much smaller business now than he is. Faldo had won many times before going to Lead and there is definitley a parallel here between Faldo's situation when he first went to Lead and Tiger with Foley.
The question for me is how these golf gurus manage to attract the top players. Some of these gurus are not that informed technically or pedagogically, yet they seem to have a way whereby they manage to gain the trust and respect of the top players. Sean Foley is clearly commited to his trade, and he clearly takes a personal pride in his work - even to the degree that when talking about golf he gives the impression that its almost as important as life and death (BTW, I don't mean that in a negative way). I think this is why he has the trust and respect of the tour players. Oh, and there's one other point, what he teaches WORKS!
trickyric67
New
looked pretty stack and tilt to me
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Ask Parker McGlaughlin if it works. Anybody's stuff can work for anybody and the same stuff can destroy someone else. Nobody has all the answers. This stuff is getting insane. Teachers get way too much credit when someone plays well. Last time I checked coaches and teachers dont throw a pass, hit a shot or anything else. They just point you in the right direction.
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Professional athletes are inherently insecure people...all of them. They judge themselves harshly and most of them are in constant fear of losing their abilities. They are drawn to teachers that exude confidence, especially when they are feeling down about their games.
Tiger is a very smart guy and I'm quite sure he knows a ton about the golf swing and even more about his own. But players that change their golf swings drastically to achieve some sort of greatness do so more because it's easier pyschologically to make a change and convince yourself it will make you better than to do regular maintenance on your swing and stick with one method.
Like Jack Nicklaus used to say, It's harder to hit away from a pin that it is to attack. It takes tremendous discipline to stick with your method.
I'm always a little wary of any teacher that says you can't do something because somewhere, at some point, someone's done it and done it well. I think Sean is a smart guy and I'm sure he knows his stuff, but if he was so confident in his abilities to help anyone, then why would he call Andy Plummer and Mike Bennett and ask their opinion on what they would address with Tiger first?
Tiger is a very smart guy and I'm quite sure he knows a ton about the golf swing and even more about his own. But players that change their golf swings drastically to achieve some sort of greatness do so more because it's easier pyschologically to make a change and convince yourself it will make you better than to do regular maintenance on your swing and stick with one method.
Like Jack Nicklaus used to say, It's harder to hit away from a pin that it is to attack. It takes tremendous discipline to stick with your method.
I'm always a little wary of any teacher that says you can't do something because somewhere, at some point, someone's done it and done it well. I think Sean is a smart guy and I'm sure he knows his stuff, but if he was so confident in his abilities to help anyone, then why would he call Andy Plummer and Mike Bennett and ask their opinion on what they would address with Tiger first?
well, here is my point also. i have seen kevin shields' superlative swing on youtube and even without seeing his short game, i bet his game is more than solid. somehow i have learned to lie to myself that by sensing someone's inner tempo with couple swings that i can somehow get a sense of the overall game.
for argument sake, if somehow kevin is coerced (under a gun) or convinced (100 mil reward) to change for the time being to a stack and tilt-ish swing, i bet he can do it and can also score similarly like he is doing right now.
imo, whereas some if not most folks possibly are more naturally fitted to certain types of swings, i think a few others have enough capacity to gravitate to one direction at one time, and/or another at another time, with similar outcome. they simply have the instinct to find a way.
there is one thing that i feel that my family has benefited from the s and t thinking, that is, during iron play, to not sway back at all during backswing. my kids don't go as far as staying on the right side, but at least more centered. it helped. (but if they forget to let loose a little for driver, then what is good may be bad
for argument sake, if somehow kevin is coerced (under a gun) or convinced (100 mil reward) to change for the time being to a stack and tilt-ish swing, i bet he can do it and can also score similarly like he is doing right now.
imo, whereas some if not most folks possibly are more naturally fitted to certain types of swings, i think a few others have enough capacity to gravitate to one direction at one time, and/or another at another time, with similar outcome. they simply have the instinct to find a way.
there is one thing that i feel that my family has benefited from the s and t thinking, that is, during iron play, to not sway back at all during backswing. my kids don't go as far as staying on the right side, but at least more centered. it helped. (but if they forget to let loose a little for driver, then what is good may be bad
rcw
New
Teachers may not throw a pass or hit a shot but they are very important. Even if it is just to instill confidence, though I believe their roles are more encompassing than that.
I can recognize that Tiger is striking the ball much better after working with Foley. We shall see if it continues. I for one believe that it will. I agreed with Brian before, I see majors in his future next year.
Why the animosity? Surely you believe coaches in other sports are critical to success of individuals and teams. Lets take NFL coaches for example. I think some of these guys are brilliant in their coaching and running a team. The same can be said about many coaches/teachers across the spectrum of athletics and beyond. Why else would you do it yourself? Process of elimination? I hope you believe you can have a positive effect on YOUR students. If not that would be unfortunate for you and them.
It seems your answers have helped many on this forum understand factors involving the golf swing, myself included. I would assume the same can be said about the students you work with hands on. You are also obviously a talented player. That is one of the traits I admire in instructors, I like the ones who can teach and play well.
I was a golf instructor for 7 years until the beginning of this year. So I do have some experience in the area of discussion. I certainly believe I was helpful in the success of many of my students. Was I soley respnsible? No. Instrumental? Yes.
I am sure you believe that you and other teachers and coaches CAN take some credit for improving their students. Working with players at the PGA tour level is obviously different in that these guys can learn something new and apply it quickly. They are incredibley talented. Tour players also bring alot of other issues to the table and are not the easiest to work with. Ego being one of the problems, but it is all relative. Players at every level need to be guided and taught. Their success level will just be measured differently. I just do not understand your inability, and other on this forum to give gredit where credit is due. Do you have an axe to grind with Sean Foley?
Only time will tell whether or not Tiger has continued success with Foley. So far it appears they are moving in the right direction. In reference to Parker. Not all players and coaches click. There are a variety of reasons this may not happen as I am sure you are aware.
Just to clarify. I do not know everything that he teaches. I am just going to give him the benefit of the doubt. Being Tigers teacher will vault you into the spotlight and bring quick success and recognition. I also bet it brings on a good deal of pressure. I like to see a young smart guy have a crack at him. I for one hope he does well.
I can recognize that Tiger is striking the ball much better after working with Foley. We shall see if it continues. I for one believe that it will. I agreed with Brian before, I see majors in his future next year.
Why the animosity? Surely you believe coaches in other sports are critical to success of individuals and teams. Lets take NFL coaches for example. I think some of these guys are brilliant in their coaching and running a team. The same can be said about many coaches/teachers across the spectrum of athletics and beyond. Why else would you do it yourself? Process of elimination? I hope you believe you can have a positive effect on YOUR students. If not that would be unfortunate for you and them.
It seems your answers have helped many on this forum understand factors involving the golf swing, myself included. I would assume the same can be said about the students you work with hands on. You are also obviously a talented player. That is one of the traits I admire in instructors, I like the ones who can teach and play well.
I was a golf instructor for 7 years until the beginning of this year. So I do have some experience in the area of discussion. I certainly believe I was helpful in the success of many of my students. Was I soley respnsible? No. Instrumental? Yes.
I am sure you believe that you and other teachers and coaches CAN take some credit for improving their students. Working with players at the PGA tour level is obviously different in that these guys can learn something new and apply it quickly. They are incredibley talented. Tour players also bring alot of other issues to the table and are not the easiest to work with. Ego being one of the problems, but it is all relative. Players at every level need to be guided and taught. Their success level will just be measured differently. I just do not understand your inability, and other on this forum to give gredit where credit is due. Do you have an axe to grind with Sean Foley?
Only time will tell whether or not Tiger has continued success with Foley. So far it appears they are moving in the right direction. In reference to Parker. Not all players and coaches click. There are a variety of reasons this may not happen as I am sure you are aware.
Just to clarify. I do not know everything that he teaches. I am just going to give him the benefit of the doubt. Being Tigers teacher will vault you into the spotlight and bring quick success and recognition. I also bet it brings on a good deal of pressure. I like to see a young smart guy have a crack at him. I for one hope he does well.
cmartingolf
New
I watched the episode last night with no kiddy interruption. I also watched Hank. Foley did a much better job IMO.
I also like the fact that he acknowledged others for his success. Ben Kern was a dear friend and my mentor as well. I'm older than Foley so Sean and I didn't spend any time together at the National. Foley's favorite tip of "don't do anything in the expense of balance," is actually a term Knudson coined. Ben and George were best of friends. Both died in their 50's of cancer. I wish they were still around.
It's nice to see a guy who came from that junior program do so well.
I also like the fact that he acknowledged others for his success. Ben Kern was a dear friend and my mentor as well. I'm older than Foley so Sean and I didn't spend any time together at the National. Foley's favorite tip of "don't do anything in the expense of balance," is actually a term Knudson coined. Ben and George were best of friends. Both died in their 50's of cancer. I wish they were still around.
It's nice to see a guy who came from that junior program do so well.
Couldn't agree more, Kevin. Even if the technique being taught is sound, the dispute of just how much a teacher contributes in the success of a particular player can be debated until the cows come home; however, when all is said and done, one can liken it to a psychologist supporting a patient: some people just click with other people for reasons that are inexplicable to us at the present level of human understanding. It’s well known that psychology doesn’t really have any watertight causal science behind it, rather it has some educated guesses and statistical analysis that may or may not be germane. Not to say that it doesn’t perform a very valuable service to many people but the human brain is way too complicated and will only be fully understood, not from contemporaneous knowledge acquisition, but from massive evolutionary changes to the organ, something that will take hundreds of years, if not more. When we have no clue, AND I MEAN NO CLUE, about what is even inherent to a human being (apart from some physical characteristics and some sort of language acquisition skills), something that really should be the most basic tenet of understanding ourselves, then it seems rather futile to push on and say with absolute certainty that golf teacher A contributes this or that, even if the technique being taught is what we on this forum would consider solid. Now, that shouldn’t stop us trying; indeed that’s part of the fun, and I for one, applaud Sean Foley, Brian Manzella et al. BUT surely one has to realize that sweeping statements of certainty can only be conceptualized within our current psychological understanding. It’s a journey, and we have no clue how far we are from the start, or, indeed, how close we are to the end.
Steve Greffen
New
Really he is swinging much better than he was before with Haney and because of that the ball is going where he wants it to. I don't think his actual striking was too bad before, he has always struck it well it's just that now he understands why it is going one way or the other and that is amazing to see. Could be quite the year...
Dustin Smale
New
Sean probably mentioned to Charles to start playing left handed.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Just to clarify, I obviously think golf coaching is important or i wouldnt be one. My post was saying they get TOO MUCH credit. We arent swinging the club for them. Ive had lessons with two people with the same problems and they get the same info, one gets it the other doesnt. Ill bet old Parker wondering when hes gonna reap the benefits of all this guru stuff. I, myself, have benefitted greatly from other people's knowledge. But Im the one who had to change myself, not the coach.
Im just totally sick of this flavor of the month, merry go round of golf coaches. We will never know if sports would be better off without coaches or not because the sports world is run by people who CANT PLAY. The micro-managing of sports makes me sick. Id rather see the best athletes line up and the quarterback draw up plays in the dirt. Ive never heard of anybody paying a ticket to watch the coaches coach. Coaches have ruined as many potential great players as they've created. There is so many people trying to make a name for themselves in a game they cant play. The head coach for the Chiefs played college golf for cryin out loud.
In case it isnt already clear, I have had life altering experiences with coaches so I may have a slightly biased view. One of the reasons I take my job so seriously.
Im just totally sick of this flavor of the month, merry go round of golf coaches. We will never know if sports would be better off without coaches or not because the sports world is run by people who CANT PLAY. The micro-managing of sports makes me sick. Id rather see the best athletes line up and the quarterback draw up plays in the dirt. Ive never heard of anybody paying a ticket to watch the coaches coach. Coaches have ruined as many potential great players as they've created. There is so many people trying to make a name for themselves in a game they cant play. The head coach for the Chiefs played college golf for cryin out loud.
In case it isnt already clear, I have had life altering experiences with coaches so I may have a slightly biased view. One of the reasons I take my job so seriously.
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Also.....
why Im a Manzellion for life. No BS, only stuff that is rooted in fact so I can sort through it and use it in teaching and playing without going down some dark tunnel and finding out later its junk.
why Im a Manzellion for life. No BS, only stuff that is rooted in fact so I can sort through it and use it in teaching and playing without going down some dark tunnel and finding out later its junk.
I know that Tiger's swing has probably been analyzed by 1000 different teachers and been discussed in numerous posts on this forum. Although there may not be a consensus among all teachers, but in this day and age of high speed video I'm sure that there is more than enough video of Tiger for most quality teachers to have a gameplan as to how THEY would best deal with Tiger's swing.
Because golf is a game of feel, Tiger just drank the Haney layed off Kool-Aid a little too much. One day it "feels" pretty good and the next day your hitting the standard bearer with your backswing. He's like a pitcher that throws side arm, then submarine style, then he's scraping the ground with his knuckles. If anyone watched his practice swings this week, he's exaggerating the "carry" move on his downswing and trying to get the club more vertical. I don't know Brian Manzella personally, but from what I've read and seen, I would like to think he would have done something very similar. Sean Foley is not the "Swing Whisperer", he's just the guy who got Tiger at rock bottom. Period.
Because golf is a game of feel, Tiger just drank the Haney layed off Kool-Aid a little too much. One day it "feels" pretty good and the next day your hitting the standard bearer with your backswing. He's like a pitcher that throws side arm, then submarine style, then he's scraping the ground with his knuckles. If anyone watched his practice swings this week, he's exaggerating the "carry" move on his downswing and trying to get the club more vertical. I don't know Brian Manzella personally, but from what I've read and seen, I would like to think he would have done something very similar. Sean Foley is not the "Swing Whisperer", he's just the guy who got Tiger at rock bottom. Period.
Richie3Jack
New
I agree completely with Kevin.
Although I thought Foley brought up a good point when he quoted Plato.
A golfer is better off understanding this stuff themselves The teacher can point them in the right direction and explain it so they can understand it, but it takes a willingness of the student to want to understand it.
It's like studying for a test. You can study for it so you know the answers for the test. Or you can study for it so you know the answers but also understand how to apply it.
My best friend from back home is the smartest person I've ever met. He nearly aced his SAT's, graduated with a 4.0 from Syracuse University.
And he never....not once...took notes.
He was much like Matt Damon's character in Good Will Hunting. He reads stuff that is very complex in his own free time.
A long time ago I asked him how he does so well without taking notes and he said that was the key. He wasn't interested in memorizing it, he was more interested in understanding it and applying it. If he got that down, then a test would be even easier to take.
The thing I don't like about instruction and I think where golfer's fail is that they get married to a golf coach and rely solely on what that golf coach says and they just wind up 'taking orders' without fully understanding the concept at hand. And they wind up becoming more reliant on the coach.
3JACK
Although I thought Foley brought up a good point when he quoted Plato.
A golfer is better off understanding this stuff themselves The teacher can point them in the right direction and explain it so they can understand it, but it takes a willingness of the student to want to understand it.
It's like studying for a test. You can study for it so you know the answers for the test. Or you can study for it so you know the answers but also understand how to apply it.
My best friend from back home is the smartest person I've ever met. He nearly aced his SAT's, graduated with a 4.0 from Syracuse University.
And he never....not once...took notes.
He was much like Matt Damon's character in Good Will Hunting. He reads stuff that is very complex in his own free time.
A long time ago I asked him how he does so well without taking notes and he said that was the key. He wasn't interested in memorizing it, he was more interested in understanding it and applying it. If he got that down, then a test would be even easier to take.
The thing I don't like about instruction and I think where golfer's fail is that they get married to a golf coach and rely solely on what that golf coach says and they just wind up 'taking orders' without fully understanding the concept at hand. And they wind up becoming more reliant on the coach.
3JACK
I think we're all in the same boat Kevin. I used to tell everyone who would listen that clueless coaches wrecked my game, but now I tell them that I wrecked my game. Because I went to the coaches and asked them what I should do. If its not working get TF outa there and limit the damage, move on and find something/one else. Its a bad sad thing when talent gets ruined but it is unavoidable - with or without coaches. Doctors can't treat without some degree of failure an coaches can't coach without f-ing some guys up.
Foley seems to have helped several players improve, so it would seem that its not all just flavour of the month stuff. But I do know where you're coming from on this.
I'm sure there's some kind golfing political elitism involved too. Its not just about what you know...
alexandjacob
New
yep richie
you said................A long time ago I asked him how he does so well without taking notes and he said that was the key. He wasn't interested in memorizing it, he was more interested in understanding it and applying it. If he got that down, then a test would be even easier to take.
great comment...NEVER let EDUCATION get in the way of LEARNING
you said................A long time ago I asked him how he does so well without taking notes and he said that was the key. He wasn't interested in memorizing it, he was more interested in understanding it and applying it. If he got that down, then a test would be even easier to take.
great comment...NEVER let EDUCATION get in the way of LEARNING
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