For Manzella Academy Only - Putting Misery

[curtisj76]

Hi quick question. I have NO idea what was said in the old post lookingtolearn put up. I just want to know if my Dave Pelz Putting Track that I bought 5 years ago is a piece of junk? It was hot at the time but when I started viewing TGM sites everyone said that it's no good. What say you my fellow members?

Thanks

 

[Bill Miracle]

Haven't read all of this thread but...

i've been putting lights out lately. I;ve been putting in the mid to high 20s for putts. Not over 30 in a few rounds. Last round, 2-20+ footers and 2-30+ footers. Misses were just a couple of inches to about 1.5 ft from the hole.

Brian gave me some putting hints during my last lesson. Shoulder to the ball then shoulder to the ball as a thought. My problem, on the back swing, I was too upright with the stroke which caused inconsistencies with the through swing.

I see the back stoke plane so much better and use shoulders (least that is what it feels like to me) for the power.

This translated into successful chips shots as well.

Lots of confidence in putting and around the green game. Thanks BM!

 

[lookingtolearn]

i've been putting lights out lately. I;ve been putting in the mid to high 20s for putts. Not over 30 in a few rounds. Last round, 2-20+ footers and 2-30+ footers. Misses were just a couple of inches to about 1.5 ft from the hole.

Brian gave me some putting hints during my last lesson. Shoulder to the ball then shoulder to the ball as a thought. My problem, on the back swing, I was too upright with the stroke which caused inconsistencies with the through swing.

I see the back stoke plane so much better and use shoulders (least that is what it feels like to me) for the power.

This translated into successful chips shots as well.

Lots of confidence in putting and around the green game. Thanks BM!

Good to hear.

One question Bill. For your thought of shoulder to the ball then shoulder to the ball, I take it that means left shoulder on the backstroke and then right shoulder on the through stroke? Does transferring your thoughts between two different body parts give you any trouble during such a short stroke? Just wondering.
Right now I am just thinking left shoulder toward the ground, left shoulder away from the ground (like Damon said in his podcast).

 

[puttmad]

Hi guys,
Response to the last couple of posts...
Glad you're doing well Bill...and I'm not decrying anything you are doing, but....

Feel in putting ultimately comes from the hands. The shoulder movement you are performing is 100% for blade-at-impact control...that's great...but it is not the best application for pure distance control, that need to come from the hands...
I would have a tendency (once you have ingrained the shoulder action) to put more feeling back into your hands, i.e. make the action of the shoulders match the feeling of the hands and not just allow the shoulder action to control your weight....remember Jack and his right palm?.....it's in the hands...

 

[Damon Lucas]

Hi guys,
Response to the last couple of posts...
Glad you're doing well Bill...and I'm not decrying anything you are doing, but....

Feel in putting ultimately comes from the hands. The shoulder movement you are performing is 100% for blade-at-impact control...that's great...but it is not the best application for pure distance control, that need to come from the hands...
I would have a tendency (once you have ingrained the shoulder action) to put more feeling back into your hands, i.e. make the action of the shoulders match the feeling of the hands and not just allow the shoulder action to control your weight....remember Jack and his right palm?.....it's in the hands...

This is where we disagree, puttmad!

Feel ultimately comes from the timing of the movement, IMO. That can be 'felt' by the hands, by the shoulders, by the swinging of the putterhead, and probably a couple of other senses.

'Feel' in the hands is a day by day proposition. Unless you spend a ton of time practising that particular 'feel', I think that you will struggle.

The distinction that needs to be made is that I am not suggesting that it must be the shoulders that is predominantly felt, but the timing of the movement that should be observed, and attempted to be repeated.

 

[pm4610]

I think I have a difficult time "rocking" my shoulders. I would really appreciate it if someone could definitively explain "shoulder to the ball". I just don't get it...maybe that's why my putting stinks.

Thanks,
p

 

[Damon Lucas]

"shoulder to the ball" just means moving the tip of your left shoulder towards the ball in the backswing, and the tip of your right shoulder to the ball in the downswing.

With regard 'rocking the shoulders', try clasping the hands together in a praying position with fingers pointing towards the ground. Then move the shoulders and arms and hands back and forth with the muscles in the lower back and sides instigating the motion.

For you pm, it sounds like you need to minimize thoughts about what the body does, and try to concentrate instead on the roll of the ball and the straightness of the roll. ie Put a line on a ball, and roll it straight and pure, first without a target, then towards a target, and finally to a target with some pressure to 'make it'!

 

[pm4610]

Damon,
Thanks and I believe you are correct with what I need to do. Is the "shoulder to the ball" and the "rocking the shoulders" the same motion? Also, regarding "shoulder to the ball", my shoulders would be moving to the ball, but still parallel to the ball (like 'rocking'), correct? They don't TURN to the ball, do they?

Thanks again, I really appreciate this.
p

 

[Damon Lucas]

"shoulder to the ball" is the direction, and the "rocking the shoulders" is the type of movement.

The 'direction' can be to the ball, to the feet, or somewhere in between. It could be outside these parameters, but I think that you would struggle.

If your shoulder moved towards the ball, that would create more of an arc type stroke than if your shoulder went towards say your left foot(all other things being equal). Also it depends a bit on how bent over the top of your spine is. More upright with shoulder to the ball and you would get a turning feeling. If the top of your spine is perpendicular to the ball, it feels more like a movement around the spine.

Fix on one kind of movement(direction) and then focus on the other stuff.

 

[puttmad]

...

This is where we disagree, puttmad!

Feel ultimately comes from the timing of the movement, IMO. That can be 'felt' by the hands, by the shoulders, by the swinging of the putterhead, and probably a couple of other senses.

'Feel' in the hands is a day by day proposition. Unless you spend a ton of time practising that particular 'feel', I think that you will struggle.

The distinction that needs to be made is that I am not suggesting that it must be the shoulders that is predominantly felt, but the timing of the movement that should be observed, and attempted to be repeated.

Exactly Damon,
Remember I said put "some" feeling back in the hands....
BTW if you get feeling from the putterhead, it comes from the hands, which is the next link between the putter and your brain.....
Try this exercise...draw two vertical lines on a piece of paper (set to landscape view)..
The left is where you address the ball, the right is the back of your backswing..
Set your putter on the left line and simply move it back to stop EXACTLY on the right-hand line..
Do this both with your shoulder movement and then just by moving your arms back, with no shoulder movement.
Which was the most accurate (and which felt most natural for the small movement you were trying to achieve?)? And which felt easiest?
Then start from the back and try and stop EXACTLY on the left hand line.....

Now I'm not saying you should not use your shoulders in putting, but that not so much attention should be given to that movement. Allow some of your natural tendencies to have some say....
The shoulder movement should be learned and then forgotten, and used as an ally to your natural feel...

 

[tongzilla]

Bruce,

It is my firm belief that it is better to make a backswing in putting that you don't have to SPEED UP to get to the ball.

Make enough backswing to "feel the fall."

I like to swing the putter back and forth—without stopping—and hit several balls lined up in a row.

Same distance back as through.

Baltimore TOUR STOP posted today.

Brian, do you think Tiger uses this technique of "feeling the fall"? Also, why does he have a bit of bounce back in most his putts?

 

[pm4610]

Brian,
What's the latest on your Putting Video, any ETA?
Thanks,
p

 

[birdie_man]

I've gotta tell you...I have not had much success with long strokes.

I tend to decelerate and push putts.

Any ideas Brian? I know my path can get a little too inside maybe moreso when I am using a FB putter. (thus less clubface opening in the BS)

I don't play well swinging too smoothly/slowly either BTW. (though I still do try to "swing" i.e. swing set)

It is not really my style as far as I can tell.

I know The Long Stroke will have to be revisited this year nonetheless.

 

[Robbohank]

Birdie,

I use a "gravity-based" putting stroke as much as possible now and my speed control on long-distance putts is much better than it used to be. Basically the backstroke length defines the distance the ball rolls as your shoulders just "keep up" with the putter head as it free-falls into impact.

Initially it was tough to trust it outside of 25 or 30 feet, so I practiced a lot of 50 to 70 foot putts where the backswing length got pretty long and I had to resist the temptation to let my arms and/or hands to "get involved" on the downstroke. It takes a while, but once you get comfortable with the big-enough backswing and just letting the putter move on it's own coming down, it's a great feeling. You only worry about direction at that point.

Not sure if this is exactly what BM is saying, but I can relate to "taking enough backswing so you don't have to speed it up coming down".

 

[Richie3Jack]

Putting has usually been a strength of my game. Recently I started to struggle with my putting, for roughly about 2 weeks...which was frustrating because I started hitting the ball really well. Finally figured it out and of course I struggled a tad with my ballstriking, but had 25 putts on some beat up greens.

The main thing I did was re-check my fundamentals. Particularly my aim. I have a laser alignment aid called (LPAS) which is really great and when I used it, I found that I was aimed slightly right but had a lot of forward shaft lean at address which, IMO, throws off the loft and the putting stroke. Living now in Atlanta, de-lofting the putterhead isn't very advisable given that you're putting on bermuda greens. So I recommend getting the LPAS (it's only like $40) because face angle is so critical in putting. D-plane is alive and well when it comes to rolling the rock.

From there, there's been studies that show that people who are aiming right tend to alter their path to get the ball to the hole. Conversely, people who aim left of the target tend to alter the face angle to get the ball to the hole. So with me aiming right, I knew my tendency was indeed to take it too far outside and close the face a little to get the ball going towards the hole. It's actually not very noticeable at all, even when I closely looked at videotape of my putting stroke.

But eventually I got it down and I'm back to my normal good putting self. Now, I just need to regain my ballstriking. Of course, that's what makes the game so difficult, yet fun to play.

I will also say that the other thing that gets me into trouble occasionally with my putting is that I tend to get too much right hand involved in the stroke. For me, I putt best when I take it back with my left arm and then left the gravity and centrifigul force do the work on the thru stroke. When I start using my right hand too much then I start hitting putts more towards the toe and struggle with delivery speed/touch. But often times I find that using too much right hand stems from poor alignment. Why that happens I'm not really sure.



3JACK

 

[birdie_man]

Birdie,

I use a "gravity-based" putting stroke as much as possible now and my speed control on long-distance putts is much better than it used to be. Basically the backstroke length defines the distance the ball rolls as your shoulders just "keep up" with the putter head as it free-falls into impact.

Initially it was tough to trust it outside of 25 or 30 feet, so I practiced a lot of 50 to 70 foot putts where the backswing length got pretty long and I had to resist the temptation to let my arms and/or hands to "get involved" on the downstroke. It takes a while, but once you get comfortable with the big-enough backswing and just letting the putter move on it's own coming down, it's a great feeling. You only worry about direction at that point.

Not sure if this is exactly what BM is saying, but I can relate to "taking enough backswing so you don't have to speed it up coming down".

It makes some sense in principle. I have had some difficulty with it mostly with short putts. (which probably would be where one would i.e. direction rather than distance control) And Brian's endorsement alone warrants me revisiting it.

I will!

 

[mjstrong]

From there, there's been studies that show that people who are aiming right tend to alter their path to get the ball to the hole. Conversely, people who aim left of the target tend to alter the face angle to get the ball to the hole.

This is very interesting...

 

[birdie_man]

You'd have to alter the face angle either way...you must mean that left aimers DON'T alter path?