Form follows function? - now with Manzella Video Answer

[footwedge]

This is a post by a member at another website.

Considering what we know about the correct ball flight physics(d-plane) and the availability of Trackman to give us feedback on the swing would it be better to use that to produce a swing pattern whether it be a fade bias or draw bias or straight shot pattern than trying to fix all kinds of mechanical faults (real and perceived) to achieve a look or a perceived method.

In other words let the knowledge of the science lead the way to produce a final product/look, instead of perceived idea's of how a swing works and doing all the positions of various body parts to find a swing that looks a certain way and works.

Thoughts? which is better or is one better than the other? Which would produce better results faster? Are top players already doing this?

 

[Kevin Shields]

You should never, ever put form ahead of function...and Trackman helps tremendously in that regard.

 

[Bigwill]

"Function" is the whole point. We all know players (maybe even the guy in the mirror) who have changed their swing, or wanted to, because of the way it looked, sometimes in spite of the fact that their hitting it well. I think that average golfers, and even some instructors, associate a pretty looking swing with good results.

 

[golfdad]

agree that one should not put form ahead of function, but i think this topic has many more facets to it.

consider how darwin observed that finches with different beak sizes and shapes were suited for food sources of different sizes on different islands. if a finch with a small beak is put on an island with only large food item, she may starve to death. in this case, the form (beak size) dictates function (eating).

similarly, prior to the arrival of trackman, teachers like brian has already developed tapes for people to develop first a form to suit the desired function. that is,,,if you tend to hook,,,you swing this pattern. if tend to slice, you swing this pattern. again, form dictates function.

trackman, on the other hand, is simply a tool to help teachers more accurately diagnose and follow up a problem.

i am not exactly sure what the op is getting at. for instance, i do not see that op proposes a swing change post trackman, or specifically how to learn post trackman. but i think any other way is trying to reinvent the wheel and more rhetoric than practical.

i don't think we need to wait for trackman before we realize the utility of a pretty looking swing

 

[bax1865]

Chicken or the Egg

Again, we need to not think it terms of black or white......but rather a blend between the two extreames. Form affects Function.......players that get too involved on the Form end of the Spectrum loose sight of the Function......aka the new Tiger Woods IMHO.......and many others that have been too caught up on trying to get perfect Form........

In order to improve Function there must be a balance on trying to improve Form to improve Function........but there is a point of diminishing returns....

 

[dbl]

Golfdad, you mischaracterize Brian's video offerings. NSA is not a pattern. Secondly while NHA does present a patttern, it's valuable prescriptions are for more than just 'hookers.'

I also disagree about you assigning Trackman (and I assume similar devices) to being only for a teacher's hands.

As to your not understanding the OP and being for 'pretty swings' ...

for instance, i do not see that op proposes a swing change post trackman, or specifically how to learn post trackman. but i think any other way is trying to reinvent the wheel and more rhetoric than practical.

Keep that buggywhip if you want, but there are new horizons opening up. I see two easy ways to utilize Trackman devices. One is to conceive a change and groove it slightly at the range (without a launch monitor) then get on a machine and see if the results are what you wanted. With the feedback of the launch info, you can tweak the change to see about improving the results if need be (or if possible). Secondly, one can take an existing grooved swing, see what the launched conditions are and then make slight modifcations for improvement. I mention these two ways from personal experience, and would argue the OP is not writing 'just' rhetorically.

 

[golfdad]

Golfdad, you mischaracterize Brian's video offerings. NSA is not a pattern. Secondly while NHA does present a patttern, it's valuable prescriptions are for more than just 'hookers.'

I also disagree about you assigning Trackman (and I assume similar devices) to being only for a teacher's hands.

As to your not understanding the OP and being for 'pretty swings' ...


Keep that buggywhip if you want, but there are new horizons opening up. I see two easy ways to utilize Trackman devices. One is to conceive a change and groove it slightly at the range (without a launch monitor) then get on a machine and see if the results are what you wanted. With the feedback of the launch info, you can tweak the change to see about improving the results if need be (or if possible). Secondly, one can take an existing grooved swing, see what the launched conditions are and then make slight modifcations for improvement. I mention these two ways from personal experience, and would argue the OP is not writing 'just' rhetorically.

perhaps we have different opinions on different things and i have no intention to debate on these issues. perhaps it is like politics,,,it really depends on where we stand

you mentioned nsa is not a pattern, then said it represents a pattern. that is what i meant. what each video of brian's does to each individual viewer is beyond this discussion. i did not say brian's tape is only for this and that. i was talking about the bigger picture,,,form vs function and simply used brian's tape as an example. it is an analogy.

i never suggested that trackman is meant only for teacher. please reread what i wrote. anyone with a trackman can try to make use of it,,,if he/she knows how. heck, even if he/she does not know how trackman is a tool, a device; anyone can buy it. one needs a good teacher who knows how to use it to get the most of it, imo. until there is ample evidence that someone is capable of learning to play golf completely based on the use of a trackman, without any teacher helping, that suggested route to me at least is very extreme. practically, i don't know of anyone who would go down that route. a good teacher can provide some types of feedback that a machine can never replace. a machine does not have creativity and spontaneity, as illustrated by brian's use of a table to help drive home a massage as shown in one recent thread. try that, trackman, you dopey machine!

i have no idea what buggywhip means in that sentence. i have nothing to sell, nothing to show, just expressing my opinions.

the two ways you have suggested,,,,aren't they the ways people use the machine already anyway? that is why i have failed to see your point on these 2 ways and i have failed to see what the op was trying to get at. show me a third way,,,because it was made to sound like some sort of a revolution in teaching or learning. please don't take my use of "rhetoric" in a negative way. i am eager to see and hear something more concrete, like the 2 ways you have suggested. at least that is a start.

cheers.

 

[duckjr78]

agree that one should not put form ahead of function, but i think this topic has many more facets to it.

consider how darwin observed that finches with different beak sizes and shapes were suited for food sources of different sizes on different islands. if a finch with a small beak is put on an island with only large food item, she may starve to death. in this case, the form (beak size) dictates function (eating).

Um, I'm pretty sure evolution works the other way around. The finchs with large beaks on islands with large food sources survived and procreated, while the small beaked finchs starved and died off, therebye leaving only large beaked finches on the island. Form followed function. Pretty much always does.

Oh, and if I could find a swing that I had to execute nekid standing on my head, but it got me to a +5, I'm all in.

 

[golfdad]

agree that one should not put form ahead of function, but i think this topic has many more facets to it.

consider how darwin observed that finches with different beak sizes and shapes were suited for food sources of different sizes on different islands. if a finch with a small beak is put on an island with only large food item, she may starve to death. in this case, the form (beak size) dictates function (eating).

QUOTE]

Um, I'm pretty sure evolution works the other way around. The finchs with large beaks on islands with large food sources survived and procreated, while the small beaked finchs starved and died off, therebye leaving only large beaked finches on the island. Form followed function. Pretty much always does.

Oh, and if I could find a swing that I had to execute nekid standing on my head, but it got me to a +5, I'm all in.

alright. i will also keep the duckjrian theory in mind

lets look at a golfer who has chronic issue of not being able to hit straight.

and we call his "function" as ability to hit straight. and he just cannot do it. he slices and he cannot square his clubface, aka, his form.

if "form followed function", he should be able to square his clubface without help from teachers and machines.

how come the intention of hitting straight is met with the reality that the clubface does not square?

here is why: because the form is wrong, the beak size is wrong.

get into the right form and then you have a chance to hit straight. thus, form dictates function.

 

[dbl]

you mentioned nsa is not a pattern, then said it represents a pattern.

I believe you are misreading my mentions of both nSa and nHa above on consecutive sentences, for I only mentioned nSa once.

i never suggested that trackman is meant only for teacher.

you originally posted that "trackman, on the other hand, is simply a tool to help teachers more accurately diagnose and follow up a problem. "

Maybe you did not mean to exclude other uses and other PEOPLE from using such, but it's hard to know from your words.

Obviously you had enough interest in the topic to post your opposition to the OP's idea, so stick around and defend your views. Maybe there is something to seeking a good form (if a right one ) which will end up providing a good function. However, in my opinion, many golfers misinform and mislead themselves by badly understanding or performing a desired "form" and thus their function is imparied if not outright bad. A machine can give them the feedback of what they probably intuitively sense. As to how to fix...they could have a list of Manzella-isms and give any and all of them a go!

 

[golfdad]

I believe you are misreading my mentions of both nSa and nHa above on consecutive sentences, for I only mentioned nSa once.



you originally posted that "trackman, on the other hand, is simply a tool to help teachers more accurately diagnose and follow up a problem. "

Maybe you did not mean to exclude other uses and other PEOPLE from using such, but it's hard to know from your words.

Obviously you had enough interest in the topic to post your opposition to the OP's idea, so stick around and defend your views. Maybe there is something to seeking a good form (if a right one ) which will end up providing a good function. However, in my opinion, many golfers misinform and mislead themselves by badly understanding or performing a desired "form" and thus their function is imparied if not outright bad. A machine gives them the feedback of what they probably intuitively sense. As to how to fix...they could have a list of Manzella-isms and give any and all of them a go!

i stand corrected on the pattern misunderstanding. in that case, we will go along with the nHa pattern then.

i believe whatever swings or forms we have, the proof is in the pudding: ball flight and others and how you score. on that i don't think we disagree.

since there are many schools of thoughts on golf swing, a "good" form as you can imagine open up cans of worms. but, suffices it to say, at the end of the day, it will be nice that each golfer finds a swing that allows him/her to perform at his/her best. i can imagine that someone can learn to play his best with a teacher, without a trackman. meanwhile, another person may get the most of the learning experiences with a combo of teacher and tech. if i read op correctly, it sounds like people want to explore another way,,,perhaps more trackman dependent?.....tell me more before i put money on the table

does it sound like there will be new sets of swing faults due to improper, independent use of trackman?

an interesting case in point on "form" is possibly what tiger is doing. the function all these years did not change...land the ball close to the desired target area, but he is evidentially changing his form recently for whatever reason. so what is a good form for him? but i digress

and, dbl, if you are truly supportive of brian's teaching: his personal touch plus trackman,,,we agree with each other. so, ask yourself, is that really what op is talking about? you don't know for sure, right? if that is the case,,,come on down and stand with me

 

[dbl]

GD, fair enough. But my internet time is not going to allow me track down all corners of the internet where perverse and wrong ideas are expounded.

does it sound like there will be new sets of swing faults due to improper, independent use of trackman?

That is a creative, funny idea but I actually doubt that will happen.

3D might allow some tech-mad method teacher to insist that certain "crazy" swing positions be achieved, but I think impact...is...impact, and over rules.

 

[footwedge]

i stand corrected on the pattern misunderstanding. in that case, we will go along with the nHa pattern then.

i believe whatever swings or forms we have, the proof is in the pudding: ball flight and others and how you score. on that i don't think we disagree.

since there are many schools of thoughts on golf swing, a "good" form as you can imagine open up cans of worms. but, suffices it to say, at the end of the day, it will be nice that each golfer finds a swing that allows him/her to perform at his/her best. i can imagine that someone can learn to play his best with a teacher, without a trackman. meanwhile, another person may get the most of the learning experiences with a combo of teacher and tech. if i read op correctly, it sounds like people want to explore another way,,,perhaps more trackman dependent?.....tell me more before i put money on the table

does it sound like there will be new sets of swing faults due to improper, independent use of trackman?

an interesting case in point on "form" is possibly what tiger is doing. the function all these years did not change...land the ball close to the desired target area, but he is evidentially changing his form recently for whatever reason. so what is a good form for him? but i digress

and, dbl, if you are truly supportive of brian's teaching: his personal touch plus trackman,,,we agree with each other. so, ask yourself, is that really what op is talking about? you don't know for sure, right? if that is the case,,,come on down and stand with me

The op is just asking some questions from what i read from the post. I think you can get form from many different places, self taught, 1 instructor to many instructors, combo of science(d-plane, trackman) and instructor. I also think that some can hurt your progress and some can make it easier and faster. I think it's a complicated and individualistic problem( what works best for you). I don't think there is one answer, but i think in all cases the weak or strong point is the student and teacher.

I also think that having the correct info. and if you can have some Trackman time with an instructor that knows how to teach using that info. would make things go a bit easier than just guesstamating things. JMO.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Brian Manzella Video Answer - Form or Function

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/19576231?portrait=0" width="640" height="480" frameborder="0"></iframe>

 

[wulsy]

Looking at the PGA Tour one would have to say that function is king. When you look at Carl Pettersson, Jim Furyk, Dustin Johnson, Lee Westwood, Jeff Overton to name but a few, there is simply a lot of variation in how they produce the correct impact conditions to claim that they are really following some kind of predefined form. Clearly there are commonalities which may have been intentions from the start (form) but getting the job done (function) must have been the dominant force in the development of these great swings.

 

[JonWil]

Looking at the PGA Tour one would have to say that function is king. When you look at Carl Pettersson, Jim Furyk, Dustin Johnson, Lee Westwood, Jeff Overton to name but a few, there is simply a lot of variation in how they produce the correct impact conditions to claim that they are really following some kind of predefined form. Clearly there are commonalities which may have been intentions from the start (form) but getting the job done (function) must have been the dominant force in the development of these great swings.

Good point Wulsy but form informed by function in the language of individual capacity (Brian's caution) may swap the crown.

 

[lia41985]

What's all this talk about the price of gold being through the roof when I just got that for free?! Brian, that was awesome. Thank you. May I suggest that the video should be a sticky.

 

[footwedge]

I agree. Enjoyed that, look Lia! i agree with you, wtf is happening...lol.

 

[cwdlaw223]

"What swing they need to make..." That sums it up and makes Brian such a great teacher. Custsom swings!

 

[Tom Losinger]

Brian, nice response you band-aid teacher!

"There isn't one swing for everyone, but everyone needs one swing"