Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
besides the great video response that was a very nice clear/great looking cam you used there. What was it?
Form follows function? - now with Manzella Video Answer
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Jon Hardesty
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Great video! We were having a conversation at the PGA Teaching & Coaching Summit and were talking about how basically most of this science and research that we are learning at a rapid pace is essentially to affect "your" Trackman numbers. At the end of the day it is about function. Tommy "two gloves" Gainey was leading the Phoenix Open tournament this week with a swing that you wouldn't call "pretty" or "method conscious" but he can produce the NUMBERS that he is looking for to hit a given shot.
2 gloves is my all time favorite,,,from assembly worker to where he is,,,he is the mon. hats off.
yet,,,looking back to all the pga winners in the past,,,compare how many got there with a swing grooved by better teachers of of whatever time period vs wild cards like tommy. 99:1?
the take home message is that once in a while someone exhibits traits of a genius,,of counter-intuition. i accept that.
but i am not going to go out of my way to suggest to others that because tommy did it his way, then his path will offer the greatest odds for the average joe.
yet,,,looking back to all the pga winners in the past,,,compare how many got there with a swing grooved by better teachers of of whatever time period vs wild cards like tommy. 99:1?
the take home message is that once in a while someone exhibits traits of a genius,,of counter-intuition. i accept that.
but i am not going to go out of my way to suggest to others that because tommy did it his way, then his path will offer the greatest odds for the average joe.
dbl,,, what i meant by my brain fart is that we usually associate a good looking swing with a good golfing ability/scoring. so intuitively, if i am put to a test and looking at 2 swings,,,one like 2 glove,,,the other more like a main stream one (despite diff schools),,,and if i have to bet on it,,,i would pick the main stream. i may be wrong on that one, as it turns out. but if i do the test again and again,,for 100 times, i would think i will be right more than wrong. it is based on this assessment i think many teachers teach their students. they constantly evaluate and reevaluate, look at what the best players do and learn to incorporate what they think will help with their own students.
i don't know tommy's background enough to say a well known teacher grooved his swing,,,i doubt it. but somehow, he is able to play at this level against all odds, like a miracle. i just love it, to see someone who can be himself and go pretty far. i am sure there are no teachers out there who can teach others to swing like fowler for the same reason. beyond some basics, smart teachers should know when to let go,,,
the other thing with tommy that i sense is that he probably feels that he has nothing to lose, that true american spirit that has been lost in many people. to pitch him against a bunch of academy produced, psychologist buffered factory products, tommy will eat their lunch because they feel they have too much to lose if they lose.
hey, how about this taking glove off to putt for better feel doctrine?
i don't know tommy's background enough to say a well known teacher grooved his swing,,,i doubt it. but somehow, he is able to play at this level against all odds, like a miracle. i just love it, to see someone who can be himself and go pretty far. i am sure there are no teachers out there who can teach others to swing like fowler for the same reason. beyond some basics, smart teachers should know when to let go,,,
the other thing with tommy that i sense is that he probably feels that he has nothing to lose, that true american spirit that has been lost in many people. to pitch him against a bunch of academy produced, psychologist buffered factory products, tommy will eat their lunch because they feel they have too much to lose if they lose.
hey, how about this taking glove off to putt for better feel doctrine?
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I understand your general comment about the "Bradenton Bunch" but even the stage-momm-ed (or staged dad-ed) Ty Tryons of the world can golf their ball. The only liability that the super-coached approach presents is the accuracy of their information. You don't get on that track without having prodigious talent to begin with. Coming from the school of hard knocks (which with golf is unavoidable) is overated. Nicklaus had every opportunity, right? Whipper-snappers traveling with an entourage that a hip-hop mogul would be proud of is a bit silly, but the idea is to get the best possible information.
I think the method-type teachers can be a real issue. It will take considerably less time with Brian's peepers and Trackman's sensors to identify workable patterns for me. Or I can continue to hit thousands of balls every year, and still never even identify it, never mind hone it!
Ultimately it is up to the player to own that pattern. I remember listening to Nicklaus give a scathing review of the team of nutritionists, psychologists, and teachers that some players have swarming around them. This coming from a guy that had a great teacher from age 10! Still, I think his point was that you have to own your own material, especially under pressure. What are the chances that you stumble on a method teacher with a method that is optimal for you?
I think the method-type teachers can be a real issue. It will take considerably less time with Brian's peepers and Trackman's sensors to identify workable patterns for me. Or I can continue to hit thousands of balls every year, and still never even identify it, never mind hone it!
Ultimately it is up to the player to own that pattern. I remember listening to Nicklaus give a scathing review of the team of nutritionists, psychologists, and teachers that some players have swarming around them. This coming from a guy that had a great teacher from age 10! Still, I think his point was that you have to own your own material, especially under pressure. What are the chances that you stumble on a method teacher with a method that is optimal for you?
"I think his point was that you have to own your own material, especially under pressure. What are the chances that you stumble on a method teacher with a method that is optimal for you?"
i like that a lot, esp the second part,,,thought provoking... as thought provoking as it is scary
the other aspect is to look at what we called a method teacher vs a philosophy teacher.
each teacher has to start with something, aka a method or two. the method teacher will probably be less experienced and has sufficient knowledge of a method to hang up a shingle. if the quest for knowledge stops there, that will be a pity because progress is made on a daily basis in terms of people's collective understanding of the game and the teaching of the game.
hopefully a method teacher can continue to learn, both in breadth and depth, to become a philosophy teacher where the students are taught individually but with less of a microscopic control to allow individual growth.
i think it is a tendency of the human nature to overdo something in the name of being helpful
i like that a lot, esp the second part,,,thought provoking... as thought provoking as it is scary
the other aspect is to look at what we called a method teacher vs a philosophy teacher.
each teacher has to start with something, aka a method or two. the method teacher will probably be less experienced and has sufficient knowledge of a method to hang up a shingle. if the quest for knowledge stops there, that will be a pity because progress is made on a daily basis in terms of people's collective understanding of the game and the teaching of the game.
hopefully a method teacher can continue to learn, both in breadth and depth, to become a philosophy teacher where the students are taught individually but with less of a microscopic control to allow individual growth.
i think it is a tendency of the human nature to overdo something in the name of being helpful
I would like to believe that even method teachers don't "think" their method is junk science. Otherwise there are a lot of snake oil salesmen in the golf world. I believe they have found a method that works for one student (or themselves) and are desperately trying to get it to work on everyone. Its a futile exercise but their confidence and conviction make them great salespeople.
Ok got it. Thanks!
I might also point out that the genius of putting the ball in the hole may just be a little bit different from the genius of swings, great OR quirky. So, betting, is a complicated issue once we consider scoring ability!
True. I have made my peace method teachers! They are welcome to pluck on their one stringed banjos all day long. How many non-method teachers are out there? Brian is a rare bird. I used to think a prominent TGM teacher was a non-methoder, but too much was said about Homer's preferred pattern of "take er up the TSP and bring er down the same plane"
When does a pattern become a method? Is the hallmark of a method a position and not the ball's ballistics? I envy Rickie Fowler not having used video. I recall watching my swing for the first time as a college player. The coach (a Ben Doyle adherent) went to drawing lines on the actual TV screen! Apparently we had a lot of work to do! I remember saying "Hey coach I smoked that one!" He was convinced that a shift to the elbow plane would make me an All-American (4th team of course!)
Sad story. That was the first time I started to think in terms of positions (or even alignments.) It used to be all about ball flight. Tough to get back to that way of thinking. Just recently I was hitting range balls and my friendly neighborhood teaching pro noticed some of my NHA changes.
Pro: "Do you know how for left you are aiming?
Me:"I pitched it within 10 ft, dead on line.
Pro:"That means you squared it with your hands"
Me:"How do you go about hitting it dead straight?"
Pro:"You should never try to hit it straight."
That is my standard question to company men these days, or people that ignore the fact that I just hit a world class shot and want to comment on things that they may or may not have noticed but certainly could not measure.
Anyone know someone in the Jupiter Florida area that can offer the use of a Trackman for a fair price? spring Break is approaching!
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
ScottRob, where do you play in Jupiter?
birdie_man
New
Very good video answer. Top 1 Teacher material.
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