Free-wheeling through impact
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Depends what you call "Release". In the first stages of Release the inline angle between the left forearm and club shaft progresively increases after the left arm reaches about horizontal and the clubshaft is vertical. Then that angle start to rapidly increase to the point of Final Release action - the rapid supination of the left hand through the axial rotation of the left forearm. This is where the freewheeling culminates and the momentum of the club takes over.
In the initial stages of Release, you can get away with a cupped left wrist, but when you get into the final stages of Release, your cupped left wrist will be forced flat by centrifugal force rather quickly, which can be tricky. If you maintain a flat left wrist from the Top then you can avoid "uncupping" your left wrist flat.
Take your choice of left wrist positions in the downswing and accept the risk. A flat left wrist is least risky and that is common knowledge. Homer astutely recognized that and I credit him for seeing that too. However smearing his unscientific crap to validate his explanations really torpedoes his credibility.
Everybody realizes Homer's scientific ignorance now but it persists and the faithful refuse to acknowledge the truth because they are also science-ignorant. Frustrating ....
The clubhead "disconnects" from the shaft for both the Whippy and regular shaft, the only difference is that the Whippy disconnection is more exagerated. If you can time the Whippy and accelerate it from the Top the same as a regular shaft, you should theoretically generate the same power and distance. The Whippy swing requires a very inline swing where the arms and shaft are well inline to hit on the sweet spot. The Whippy and arms both windmill around the shoulders on the same plane in a swing disconnected manner. If you tried a 3/4 steep swing with the Whippy you could injure yourself by hitting yourself on the back of your head ... twice .... !!!
quote:Originally posted by horton
[br]
Depends what you call "Release". In the first stages of Release the inline angle between the left forearm and club shaft progresively increases after the left arm reaches about horizontal and the clubshaft is vertical. Then that angle start to rapidly increase to the point of Final Release action - the rapid supination of the left hand through the axial rotation of the left forearm. This is where the freewheeling culminates and the momentum of the club takes over.
In the initial stages of Release, you can get away with a cupped left wrist, but when you get into the final stages of Release, your cupped left wrist will be forced flat by centrifugal force rather quickly, which can be tricky. If you maintain a flat left wrist from the Top then you can avoid "uncupping" your left wrist flat.
Take your choice of left wrist positions in the downswing and accept the risk. A flat left wrist is least risky and that is common knowledge. Homer astutely recognized that and I credit him for seeing that too. However smearing his unscientific crap to validate his explanations really torpedoes his credibility.
Everybody realizes Homer's scientific ignorance now but it persists and the faithful refuse to acknowledge the truth because they are also science-ignorant. Frustrating ....
Horton,
Earlier you said the following:
"Freewheeling through Impact. I have provided a scientific study reference that will clarify your question on left hand/wrist manipulation through Impact. The study indicates that better players use centrifugal force and not any hand manipulation to square the clubface through Impact. No educated hands!?</u>"
And you said:
"I think all we can hope for is an approximately flat wrist to happen, because you can't force your left wrist to flatten during the golfswing Release. It must happen naturally provided the hands and the remainder of the body is propely aligned into Impact."
And in the above post you said:
"A flat left wrist is least risky and that is common knowledge. Homer astutely recognized that and I credit him for seeing that too."
So are you saying the hands can be educated or not? Does the player with "throwaway" or "flip" utilize the same centrifugal force or centriptal force as an efficent swing? Do the hands have any role in PRECISELY APPLYING force? If they don't what does?
I will not take issue with your science. But my contention is that you can do more that HOPE for a flat left wrist.
Horton,
At least we're talking about Release in the same way - release of Accumulator #2 followed by (in sequence) release of Accumulator #3. That's a start, but raises two questions.
First, where and how is that sequence portrayed in mandrin's model?
Second, isn't the "flow of energy from the inner segment to the outer segment" that the model depicts dependent on the left wrist bending? (Which raises a third question - call it 2A - what would happen in the model if the left wrist stayed flat?)
At least we're talking about Release in the same way - release of Accumulator #2 followed by (in sequence) release of Accumulator #3. That's a start, but raises two questions.
First, where and how is that sequence portrayed in mandrin's model?
Second, isn't the "flow of energy from the inner segment to the outer segment" that the model depicts dependent on the left wrist bending? (Which raises a third question - call it 2A - what would happen in the model if the left wrist stayed flat?)
rundmc .... OMG !!!!!!!!! .... I may have contradicted myself!!!!!
brianman, HELP .... can you delete rundmc's post like you delete mine that don't please you ????
On second thought maybe I can dig myself out of this hole.
1 - Educate your left hand to be flat in the backswing and at the top of the swing
2 - Maintain that flat left wrist through Impact letting centrifugal force further extend the wrist as the forearm supinates the left hand..
3 - Do not cup you left wrist at the Top and then try to educate it to flatten as you approach final Release and Impact. Depending on centrifugal force to flatten an excessively cupped left wrist is asking for too much and is very risky because you may end up with an arched left wrist which is a Death Move that can strip your wrist ligaments if you chuck the club and suddenly stop it.
Hope that helps ...... [:I]
brianman, HELP .... can you delete rundmc's post like you delete mine that don't please you ????
On second thought maybe I can dig myself out of this hole.
1 - Educate your left hand to be flat in the backswing and at the top of the swing
2 - Maintain that flat left wrist through Impact letting centrifugal force further extend the wrist as the forearm supinates the left hand..
3 - Do not cup you left wrist at the Top and then try to educate it to flatten as you approach final Release and Impact. Depending on centrifugal force to flatten an excessively cupped left wrist is asking for too much and is very risky because you may end up with an arched left wrist which is a Death Move that can strip your wrist ligaments if you chuck the club and suddenly stop it.
Hope that helps ...... [:I]
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Arch left wrist a DEATH MOVE???
Trevino??
It is appart to me that since none of the guys you have learned from can fix clubface errors like me and lynn and ben and mikestloc, etc, you have no real idea what you are talking about.
None.
Trevino??
It is appart to me that since none of the guys you have learned from can fix clubface errors like me and lynn and ben and mikestloc, etc, you have no real idea what you are talking about.
None.
David,
A firm hold (with the gripping fingers) does not inhibit the Swinger's 'Free-Wheeling.' Though such a Grip definitely serves as a deterrent against the disastrous Horizontal Motion (Bending Left Wrist and Flattening Right Wrist), it does not jeopardize the flexibility necessary for the Vertical Centrifugal Throwout Motion (Left Wrist Uncocking). Nor does it prevent the proper Rotational Motion (of the Left and Right Hands). In fact, a firm Grip -- along with Extensor Action -- affords the proper structure to accomodate and facilitate the Sequenced Release of 4-D-0.
I assure you that the Clamp attaching the Club to Iron Byron or the Ping Man is quite secure. Per 1-L-#3: There is no wobble in the Clubshaft attachment(Grip).
P.S. Thank you for your previous comments on my Golf Stroke. Coming from you, especially, it meant a lot.
I agree and defer to your practical and broad experience in teaching the golfswing. My commentary is entirely theoretical science and personally subjective. Thank you for even responding to my posts, and I admit that I do not fully, or even partially understand TGM ... I only have a vague perception of the methodology. However I am competent in judging Homer's use of scientific terminology, and he get's a big "F" in his science examination in TGM. His science is a pathetic mess .... believe it.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Try to make points one at a time...use pictures.
Otherwise, you are just beating your chest.
Again, horton, my teaching speaks for itself, and my teaching, not TGM is what this forum is all about.
Stick around and learn....you will!
Otherwise, you are just beating your chest.
Again, horton, my teaching speaks for itself, and my teaching, not TGM is what this forum is all about.
Stick around and learn....you will!
Thank you for your guidance, brainman.
As a golfswing teacher who is GSED qualified too, can you share with us what you see as the shortcoming of TGM in the teaching scenario? What are the pros and cons of TGM in your experience?
I have challenged the so-called scientific basis claimed for TGM by Homer, and that makes me doubtful of the methodology derived from that faulty science. Surely any reasonable thinking person would come to that same conclusion.
David Alford
New
Holenone/Yoda/Lynn wrote:
>David,
>A firm hold (with the gripping fingers) does not inhibit the Swinger's 'Free-Wheeling.' Though such a Grip definitely serves as a deterrent against the disastrous Horizontal Motion (Bending Left Wrist and Flattening Right Wrist), it does not jeopardize the flexibility necessary for the Vertical Centrifugal Throwout Motion (Left Wrist Uncocking). Nor does it prevent the proper Rotational Motion (of the Left and Right Hands). In fact, a firm Grip -- along with Extensor Action -- affords the proper structure to accomodate and facilitate the Sequenced Release of 4-D-0.>
If one's technique is correct, all difficulties are avoided irrespective of grip pressure (excluding supertight or super loose). Technique dictates, not grip pressure. A corollary: technique can increase grip pressure during the swing. E.g. right wrist pressure for certain hitting models. While I may employ light grip pressure at setup, right wrist pressure and CONSEQUENTIALLY, left wrist pressure will significantly increase in the transition from backswing to downswing and this also increases finger pressure somewhat. This will happen as a function of technique, not viceversa.
>I assure you that the Clamp attaching the Club to Iron Byron or the Ping Man is quite secure. Per 1-L-#3: There is no wobble in the Clubshaft attachment(Grip).
True, but if a flexible, durable, non stretching clamp was used, the result should be identical.
>P.S. Thank you for your previous comments on my Golf Stroke. Coming from you, especially, it meant a lot.>
I was actually relieved at seeing how nice your swing looks, because I wanted you to be real. Pls. send me an email; I'd like to discuss some other matters, thanx.
>David,
>A firm hold (with the gripping fingers) does not inhibit the Swinger's 'Free-Wheeling.' Though such a Grip definitely serves as a deterrent against the disastrous Horizontal Motion (Bending Left Wrist and Flattening Right Wrist), it does not jeopardize the flexibility necessary for the Vertical Centrifugal Throwout Motion (Left Wrist Uncocking). Nor does it prevent the proper Rotational Motion (of the Left and Right Hands). In fact, a firm Grip -- along with Extensor Action -- affords the proper structure to accomodate and facilitate the Sequenced Release of 4-D-0.>
If one's technique is correct, all difficulties are avoided irrespective of grip pressure (excluding supertight or super loose). Technique dictates, not grip pressure. A corollary: technique can increase grip pressure during the swing. E.g. right wrist pressure for certain hitting models. While I may employ light grip pressure at setup, right wrist pressure and CONSEQUENTIALLY, left wrist pressure will significantly increase in the transition from backswing to downswing and this also increases finger pressure somewhat. This will happen as a function of technique, not viceversa.
>I assure you that the Clamp attaching the Club to Iron Byron or the Ping Man is quite secure. Per 1-L-#3: There is no wobble in the Clubshaft attachment(Grip).
True, but if a flexible, durable, non stretching clamp was used, the result should be identical.
>P.S. Thank you for your previous comments on my Golf Stroke. Coming from you, especially, it meant a lot.>
I was actually relieved at seeing how nice your swing looks, because I wanted you to be real. Pls. send me an email; I'd like to discuss some other matters, thanx.
Horton,
You're contradicting yourself again. No problem I guess since ole Walt Whitman was cool with contradictions.
The inference here I think would be that since Mr. Kelley scientifically "shat the bed," that his method is equally "shat upon." Please don't condemn what you don't know. You didn't know what impact fix was. You have capitulated on the flat left wrist and educated hands.
You seem to be a nice dude. I'm sorry that some folks have harangued you out here. You have taken it with a sense of humor. Just give TGM a shot. You have to see a good AI in action.
You are a wise and thoughtful man, but can you be wise enough to truly study the method and technique? You said something to the effect of once I read chapter 2 I had to put the book away. Give it a chance. Go see Yoda or Brian. The techniques they teach WORK.
Regards,
Richard
wallywonga
New
Here is an brief description from Mike Hebrons book, Golf Mind, Golf Body, Golf Swing. For those of you who dont know Mike he is a GSED.
At impact, it may help to feel that the club head is like a fee moving object that has been put into orbit by the swing.
In truth, the club head could be attached to a garden hose or rope at impact. The energy the ball receives from the swing is transferred through, not by the shaft.
This section was taken from - The Shaft - Effective and Efficient Swings. Page 417
Sounds to me that Mike subscribes to the idea that the head need not be attached to the shaft and that the free wheeling head is more than capabale of setting the ball on its way.
Wally.
At impact, it may help to feel that the club head is like a fee moving object that has been put into orbit by the swing.
In truth, the club head could be attached to a garden hose or rope at impact. The energy the ball receives from the swing is transferred through, not by the shaft.
This section was taken from - The Shaft - Effective and Efficient Swings. Page 417
Sounds to me that Mike subscribes to the idea that the head need not be attached to the shaft and that the free wheeling head is more than capabale of setting the ball on its way.
Wally.
Ok. What is the difference between "transfer" and "loaded?"
Side note: I took a lesson from Hebron. STAND UP GUY!!!! He forgot the lesson and I waited for him for an hour on the range. He came out and was extremely apologetic. He didn't charge me. Good guy!
I think he's on a different track with golf now. He's working on a new book. Something like How to Learn Anything Including Golf. His new book is worth it if just for the pictures. Has a section on his TGM notes.
Did he come to the Pineneedles TGM session? He stresses the bent right wrist, but he doesn't talk about LEVEL. Which is a huge omission IMO. Good guy and good teacher though.
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