Free-wheeling through impact

[wallywonga]

Run firstly the Bob Bush studies are in Mike Hebrons book Golf Swing Secrets and Lies. It also has a nice section at the back which is edited by Greg McHatton GSED. It gives an overview of TGM which I think can really help in its understanding.

Mentioning Greg and reading your post reminded me of a video that I have. Greg presented a topic at the 1990 PGA coaching summit entitled Application of physics/geometry of the golf swing. He related it to TGM and referenced it several time.

He also touched on the subject of the shaft resisting slow down at impact. Only now do I realise that he kind of contrdicted himself. Later in the video he talks about hitting balls with a length of rope and saying that it is possible to send a ball over a house. How do you pre-stress rope? I'm not sure if you can.

So I guess yes you could hit with a length of rope.

I am talking about the impact interval, the period when the ball first contact to when they separate. The release as in TGM or delivery position is a portion of the swing that once you are there you are trapped. Again Greg said that he felt that you cant be too deep here, he said the shaft would snap into line, its wants to be in line.

The problems arise when you get in the way of it.

Isn't the whole swing about manipulating force. Homer says in 2-L No law or force or motion can be annulled - even momentarily. There are three courses that can be taken for their control and are to 1) avoid, 2)harness, and 3)overpower. Engineering is the study of the application of #1 0r #2 to minimise the need of #3

My understanding of control would be this, swing that club on plane. If you can swing on plane then you can accuratly apply the forces that you are creating, apply those forces correctly and you then control the ball. Control the ball and you control your game.

1) Inertia, the resistance of a body to change its state of motion. Once matter is moving it will stay in the same path unless affected by an outside fore. Applied to golf would ensure that a club that starts on plane stays on plane.

2) Gyroscopic action and stability - Keeps the club on plane

Mike Hebron, GOlf mind, Golf body, Golf swing, p35.

Wally.

 

[6bee1dee]

You would Swing only with rope, an acceleration of the Club longitudinally with a whirl and a pull.

You would Hit with a pre-stressed shaft (or a telelphone pole for that matter), an acceleration of the Club radically with a driven right arm thrust push.

You could Swing that stressed shaft or telephone pole if you had the strength but could never push/Hit the rope.

 

[hcw]

quote:Originally posted by rundmc

Wally,

Thanks for your post. I'm trying to get my brain around this.

How are we defining "impact?" Is it the precise moment that the club collides with the ball? Or from "release" to impact to seperation?

Through impact the clubhead acts as though disconnected from the player. So for the very precise moment in time regardless of how we define impact, the player has no control. BUT does the player have control PRIOR to impact? Can the player manipulate force, CF, energy or whatever prior to impact to be sure that impact is precise and the ball as a result is controlled? If the player can control force prior to impact via manipulating the forces that will act on the clubhead and the shaft, through what means can he do this? Hands? Shoulder? Butt? Liver?

Are we saying here that you could strike a golf ball just as effectively with a clubhead tied to a rope? Is the clubhead due to the way it is attached to the shaft not also a lever? Would the properties of the the shaft not be instrumental in controlling how this lever is used? I'm pretty sure that the clubhead rotates around the sweet spot and this rotation is an additional multiplier in ball seperation velocity.

Heck if I know.

Where can you find the Bob Bush studies?

Thanks man!

Regards,

R

hi,
i just had this thought when reading your post...i think it makes sense...first let's define impact as the time and/or distance from when the clubface (well hopefully its the clubface) touches the ball, until the ball leaves the clubface which has been said to be about 0.004 sec in other threads...i think what wally et al. are saying is that DURING that fraction of a second no human being can do CHANGE anything that they are ALREADY doing with their arms/hands/clubshaft/clubface...ceratinly the player can manipulate the "force, CF, energy or whatever prior to impact to be sure that impact is precise and the ball as a result is controlled" and in fact that is what we are all here to figure out how to do accurately, precisely by whatever means (and if you can get you liver to help, plz tell me how!)...for most shots hit correctly (ie tee and short grass) the resistance put up by the ball to the club head is too small and short for us to peceive and the line and speed of the clubhead don't change enough for us tell...but when i hit one fat, i may still hit the ball with a square clubface and the ball goes straight, but not as far or with the same trajectory...same thing if you don't hit it "perfect" but to a smaller degree...

i think in theory someone could produce the same clubhead velocity with a rope and hit the ball in the right spot, it would just more difficult to do accurately and precisely (i doubt i could get it right 1 in 1000 times on a tee, let alone on the turf)...i don't have anyting to back this up but i think hit the ball EXACTLY the same with the rope vs shaft, the rope would not go quite as far as the rope is more flexible and the clubhead would be slowed down more...but again i think this is not a difference that would be perceived by a human being...does all this make any sense?

-hcw

 

[wallywonga]

Yes 6beeidee, the ball however does not know if it is being moved as a result of the club being swung or using a hitting action.

wally.

 

[rundmc]

quote:Originally posted by hcw

Originally posted by rundmc


hi,
i just had this thought when reading your post...i think it makes sense...first let's define impact as the time and/or distance from when the clubface (well hopefully its the clubface) touches the ball, until the ball leaves the clubface which has been said to be about 0.004 sec in other threads...i think what wally et al. are saying is that DURING that fraction of a second no human being can do CHANGE anything that they are ALREADY doing with their arms/hands/clubshaft/clubface...ceratinly the player can manipulate the "force, CF, energy or whatever prior to impact to be sure that impact is precise and the ball as a result is controlled" and in fact that is what we are all here to figure out how to do accurately, precisely by whatever means (and if you can get you liver to help, plz tell me how!)...for most shots hit correctly (ie tee and short grass) the resistance put up by the ball to the club head is too small and short for us to peceive and the line and speed of the clubhead don't change enough for us tell...but when i hit one fat, i may still hit the ball with a square clubface and the ball goes straight, but not as far or with the same trajectory...same thing if you don't hit it "perfect" but to a smaller degree...

i think in theory someone could produce the same clubhead velocity with a rope and hit the ball in the right spot, it would just more difficult to do accurately and precisely (i doubt i could get it right 1 in 1000 times on a tee, let alone on the turf)...i don't have anyting to back this up but i think hit the ball EXACTLY the same with the rope vs shaft, the rope would not go quite as far as the rope is more flexible and the clubhead would be slowed down more...but again i think this is not a difference that would be perceived by a human being...does all this make any sense?

-hcw

I actually disagree with nothing you have said here. It just makes no sense to me how Horton (not sure about Mandrin's thoughts on this) can say that educated hands do not matter. I don't think it's a stretch to say that during the very short time of impact the club just "freewheels," but I would say that prior to impact the hands certainly have a large roll in just how the clubhead executes it's "freewheeling" i.e. what path what angle of attack etc.

Mr. Kelley described the endless belt effect. Is this not the same thing?

Am I a retard on this?

 

[hcw]

quote:Originally posted by rundmc

I actually disagree with nothing you have said here. It just makes no sense to me how Horton (not sure about Mandrin's thoughts on this) can say that educated hands do not matter. I don't think it's a stretch to say that during the very short time of impact the club just "freewheels," but I would say that prior to impact the hands certainly have a large roll in just how the clubhead executes it's "freewheeling" i.e. what path what angle of attack etc.

can't remember where horton said that...to me his point seems to be that mr. kelley's terminology does not jibe with the standard scientific definitions in many instances and that made him dubious of what mr. kelly described about swinging the golf club, even though he admits a lot of folks have been able to hit better following the descriptions...in the "The First String is in the game!" thread mandrin says:

"I am referring to any force/torque, you, as a golfer, might think to have an noticeable effect upon ball departure speed, during impact only, I repeat, during impact ONLY"

...so i think he will probably answer in the affirmative to your post.

quote:Mr. Kelley described the endless belt effect. Is this not the same thing?

haven't read tgm, so can't say...

quote:Am I a retard on this?

i'll go out on a limb and say no

-hcw