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It's weird.
my brother and three of his friends watched that video together at his house. They are all good golfers, two played on scholarships in the US, and I have been with them when they shot 66s at different courses (par 72s, 6900, 130+ slopes etc) during casual rounds.

They really liked AJ's video.
On the other hand, I gave them Brian's website address, but to my knowledge they have never logged on to this site more than once.

Why are people like this?

I've seen AJ's videos but think I will only use it when I'm 75 and can't make a shoulder turn anymore. But I wouldn't use it now.
 
I actually got some improvement from watching AJ. Before I used to have this misguided notion of holding the face square to the target line,,,when I started the face was like a bat it improved my ballstriking some (doesn't say much for my ballstriking does it). He also advocated a hands ahead impact position driving through and compressing the golf ball ala TGM.

Having typed all that, I wouldn't recommend AJ to anybody now that I've seen the Machine.

CW
 
Milrat, I agree and thats why Im planning on seeing Brian soon and putting an end to all this trial and error BS. Im in Indy so its just a short drive down 65. I cant wait
 

Jared Willerson

Super Moderator
bhoganfan said:
Milrat, I agree and thats why Im planning on seeing Brian soon and putting an end to all this trial and error BS. Im in Indy so its just a short drive down 65. I cant wait

You won't regret that decision.
 

timm

New
I never said his stuff didn’t work for people. I was saying for the average Joe Slicer like me it only made by slice worse since I already had to much of an open clubface. After reading Brains articles on doing the twistway I’ve been able to hit good shot and at times a big draw. Not saying that this has cured the slice 100% but I only do it every now and then witch is big improvement over every hole. I just think it’s very hard to time the impact by turning your wrist to close the face. For me I would hit a slice and then the next I would hook the ball so far out of bounds. My timing was never consistent so neither was my ball striking. At least with TGM I can understand what I need to do in order to have the correct alignments to produce good shots.

Timm
 
Too complicated for the average slicer to use and time.

I would rather teach a slicer how to use CF* and once the hooks begin I would add some SNAP. That's what cured my hook.

I went from slicer-to-hooker-to-ballstriker...
 
self-mastery,

based on your name Im assuming you figured it out by yourself or did you actually see someone to help you become a better ball striker?
 
bhoganfan said:
self-mastery,

based on your name Im assuming you figured it out by yourself or did you actually see someone to help you become a better ball striker?

I figured it out on my on and I've tried ever single golf tip, idea, and method known to man.

I think of myself as a swing whore.

My biggest problem is that I like to tinker and figure out different ways to use the golf club...
 

Leek

New
yet the article shows Tiger Woods doing this very thing. What do you make of that? It all confuses me. It seems everyone who is selling some gimmick (one plane, this article, etc.) all claim Tiger or Ben Hogan do it.
 
Leek said:
yet the article shows Tiger Woods doing this very thing. What do you make of that? It all confuses me. It seems everyone who is selling some gimmick (one plane, this article, etc.) all claim Tiger or Ben Hogan do it.
Yeah, good point Leek, and they all sound equally compelling!
 
yea, Im a swing whore too...tried everything from a Couples type swing to Dante, Armour, Hogan, Bertholy, Redman, the list goes on. Im athletic enough to make them all work up to about a 13 hcp, but then I have a bad game and make a swing change. Not a good idea.... Im hoping Brian can get me on track for the long haul.
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
bhoganfan said:
Rundmc,

His thing is that as long as you open the club face on the back swing and then essentially time the closing of the club face, it will act like a mimi base ball bat creating extra power. He is not concerned at all about your backswing or footwork, just that you open the club face and then time the closing of it through impact with a delofted club face hit the down on the equator of the ball.

He also uses an image of pounding a nail downward into the back of the ball for irons and directly through the equator of the ball with your driver.

Your right some of the stuff sems TGMish, but instead driving the hands forward and having a late rolling of the wrist, he wants you to roll them right at impact. He says "all the pro's do it" especially Els....

TGM isn't about "having a late rolling of the wrists" that's AN OPTION.

If you what say is true then all he is advocating is a swinger's pattern with what seems like a full sweep release where you purposely begin to release the ball from the top. Think Tom Watson.

Also there is no need for "timing" as long as you are on plane and using your pivot properly. "Timing" is a myth in golf, "timing" is only needed when you are simply "not doing it right."
 

Jared Willerson

Super Moderator
Look, the reason a lot of people say that there is "some good" to what Bonar talks about in his article is because people here understand The Golfing Machine or understand that there are a zillion ways to get it done, in other words you can come up with the alignments, proper or not, that explains every method out there. Maybe, even appreciate some methods.

My problem with Bonar promoting a cupped left wrist at the top and actually telling people to "flip their wrists through the ball", is that it is going to make a lot of slicers out there worse. BUT, people on this forum, with a solid grasp of certain fundamentals, may find it useful. I don't, but I can see where on maybe would.

IMO, what Bonaroo talks about, when done properly, is a hyper-aggressive wedding ring up move.
 
bhoganfan said:
yea, Im a swing whore too...tried everything from a Couples type swing to Dante, Armour, Hogan, Bertholy, Redman, the list goes on. Im athletic enough to make them all work up to about a 13 hcp, but then I have a bad game and make a swing change. Not a good idea.... Im hoping Brian can get me on track for the long haul.


You sound just like me!!!
 
I don't see the word flip mentioned in this article. He says you have to "assertively rotate them toward the target." In the tips for troubleshooting he expressly warns against slowing down your hands so you don't flip.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Hmmmm.....

bhoganfan said:
yea, Im a swing whore too...tried everything from a Couples type swing to Dante, Armour, Hogan, Bertholy, Redman, the list goes on. Im athletic enough to make them all work up to about a 13 hcp, but then I have a bad game and make a swing change. Not a good idea.... Im hoping Brian can get me on track for the long haul.

Sir, if you would like, we could make you the subject of a little video.

For the trouble, I'll give you a discount.
 
self-mastery said:
I figured it out on my on and I've tried ever single golf tip, idea, and method known to man.

I think of myself as a swing whore.

My biggest problem is that I like to tinker and figure out different ways to use the golf club...

Whore no more!

I spent years eating all the pablum that Golf media would cook up, never having a swing that I could call my own.

Always had another golfer's swing in my brain, or an image from a magazine or video (Freddie makes this move so it must work) without really knowing what those guys were actually doing.

It all stopped when I discovered TGM. Now I know how professionals strike the ball the way they do.

I am building my own stroke now, based on the patterns in TGM.

Now I have my own swing in my head!

CW
 

Leek

New
Millrat said:
Whore no more!

I spent years eating all the pablum that Golf media would cook up, never having a swing that I could call my own.

Always had another golfer's swing in my brain, or an image from a magazine or video (Freddie makes this move so it must work) without really knowing what those guys were actually doing.

It all stopped when I discovered TGM. Now I know how professionals strike the ball the way they do.

I am building my own stroke now, based on the patterns in TGM.

Now I have my own swing in my head!

CW

That must be wonderful! I'm in the former category. I once had a few lessons from a guy (one of the bigger names) that dramatically lowered my scoring from mid 80s to low 70s for a while (hdcp went from 14 to 4).
I lost it, he was unavailable and too expensive (travel costs) and started copying the "thought of the month". I haven't recovered yet. Back to the teens again!
 

jeffy

Banned
I started another thread with the attached because it doesn't really talk about Bonar's method but rather the legitimacy of some of his claims.


I sent the following to Golf Magazine yesterday in response to the suspect cover article about A.J. Bonar. I sent a copy to Bonar today. I doubt it will be of interest to many here, but those who have read and studied "The Search for the Perfect Swing" may appreciate it.



To the Editor:

Many aspects of “The Instant Power Move” article disappointed me, such as the tabloid-like hyperbole, including the provocative, but clearly false, claim that Bonar’s Magic Move is “The Secret Nobody Told You!”.

What was particularly annoying, though, is the misrepresentation of the content and research conclusions of the seminal work "The Search for the Perfect Swing". The article claims on page 75 that the book’s findings were directly responsible for the widespread acceptance of the “Square-to-Square” method of the 1960’s. In fact, the book debunks the notion of maintaining a square face throughout the swing and makes many of the points central to Bonar’s approach. Chapter 16 of the book, which is titled: “Wrist Action: Squares and Rollers”, analyzes both the “square” method as well as its counterpart, dubbed in the book the “roller” method. The chapter begins as follows: “As we said, in any good golf swing the clubface must be rolled through something like a right angle, within the plane of the swing, by the way the player uses his body, shoulders, arms, and forearms...”. The chapter concludes that the extreme “square” method, which reduces the roll to the 60 or 70 degree range, will be “weaker” because of the loss of some of the “screwdriver action” derived from closing of the clubface through impact (page 94). The “roller” will, on the other hand, generate more clubhead speed by increasing the degree of rotation to 120 or 130 degrees (page 95). The “roller” is obviously the method Bonar endorses: on page 95, there is an illustration of Christy O’Conner, a “free ‘roller’”, at the top of his backswing with a cupped left wrist position and wide-open clubface identical to that demonstrated by Bonar in the first box of the article's fold-out section. Further, the authors note on page 95 that fear of hooking may cause a “roller” to “quit” on shots, and emphasize that “a player who rolls a lot going back, must fearlessly roll a lot coming through”. This advice is virtually identical to Bonar’s “Magic Move”. Significantly, despite what is implied in your article, the authors of "The Search" show no preference for either method (page 97): “The essential point is that there is nothing wrong with either one of these methods...”.

Your article implies that flaws in the authors’ research gave rise to decades of faulty instruction; however, the book in no way made the conclusions that Bonar alleges. Specifically, the following statements and conclusions by Bonar are flatly contradicted by the contents of the referenced book:

1) “Among their key findings, the authors concluded that golfers can’t use the hands to reliably manipulate the club on the downswing.”

The book concluded something quite different: that when the downswing is underway, it is impossible to “save” the shot through a last-ditch manipulation of the hands (page 102). This remains unchallenged today: human reaction time precludes it. As far as timing the respective methods’ downswings, the authors noted that the primary argument advanced by the “squares” was that less rotation would make the swing easier to time (page 94), which they concede is “probably” true. However, they also point out several shortcomings of the “square” method, as well as note certain advantages of the “roller” method.

2) “The clubface, they added, must stay fairly square through impact.”

Not so; on page 96, the caption of illustration 16:3 states that an argument made by the “squares” in favor of their method is that the clubface will remain more square to the clubhead arc. However, they note that “This is a purely mechanical argument, which takes no account of the greater difficulty most golfers have in swinging” in such a manner. Further, on pages 74 and 75, illustration 11:2 is a swing sequence of Ben Hogan. The caption, titled “Near perfection”, reads in part that Hogan’s ”left forearm rotation is allowed to continue naturally after impact (pictures 13 and 14), no attempt is being made to hold the face square to the clubhead arc”. On page 73, illustration 11:1, the caption reads in part: “To hold the clubface square to the line like this...” is “An almost impossible position, at least on a full shot”.

3) “'The Search' gave rise to the theory of square-to-square...”

To the contrary, as should be obvious by the foregoing discussion: the square–to-square theory was well established by 1968, given that the authors devoted a chapter of the book to analyzing both it and the competing point of view, which is now espoused by Bonar. As already stated, the authors did not endorse either method over the other.

4) “But the book was flawed, Bonar claims. It dubbed a square clubface king but ignored the fact that all good players close the face by about 120 degrees in the two feet before and after impact.”

Complete nonsense: the authors nowhere dubbed “a square clubface king” and make plain that, in the most extreme case, the club is rotated through at least 120 degrees (60 degrees open in the backswing than a corresponding amount in the through swing) and as much as 260 degrees in the case of a “free ‘roller””.

5) “That second lever, the rotating clubface, imposes tremendous energy on the ball, he says. But by swinging with your big muscles, you lose the lever”.

Again, both are a totally false statements. The rotating clubface, powered by the hands and arms, adds power to the clubhead, but not a “tremendous” amount. On page 81, the researchers, through the application of physics, calculate that to generate 100 mph at impact requires delivering about one-and-a-half horsepower to the clubhead. Since at least an equal amount of energy is assumed to be used to swing the arms and rotate the body, the total amount of energy required in the downswing is at least three horsepower. The researchers further calculate that an average man can generate about one-and-a-quarter horsepower from the arm muscles, meaning that the rest of the power needs to be supplied by the “big muscles” of the body. There is no biomechanical reason that both the big muscles of the body as well as the hands and arms cannot be simultaneously applied in the downswing; in fact, doing so is the only way to generate maximum clubhead speed (page 81).

The great modern day teacher Jim Hardy began his 1990 PGA Teaching and Coaching Summit presentation by stating, in effect, that there is nothing new under the sun in golf instruction, just a process of continual rediscovery of well-established truths. The text of "The Search for the Perfect Swing" makes clear that Bonar’s method was well established forty years ago (as was square-to-square) and that your article could have been written relying solely on material from the book. I assume neither you nor any “fact checkers” at Golf Magazine researched "The Search" to verify what turned out to be bogus claims by Bonar. Obviously, the text of your article should be corrected before it is republished elsewhere or posted on golf.com, and a retraction of the false claims published. No doubt you will also want to apologize to "The Search’s" authors.

Very truly yours,

Jeff
 
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