Golf Tips from Your Playing Partners

[softconsult]

Searching for the right phrase, Sheesh! is about right.

Played our tournament today at a very nice old style tree lined Country Club.
I have been having trouble getting the Driver up to normal height for about three weeks. Double bogeyed the first to holes with errant tee shots.

On the next to the last hole, two of the guys in my foresome (I know them well) said, "Can we tell you something?" Sure, said I, no problem. "You have played this entire round with your heels about 12 inches apart with the Driver.

The problem with this game is remembering the basics! I had words for myself which I won't repeat. I have probably been doing that for at least a month and think this is obviously the cause of the low tee shots.

 

[birdie_man]

It never ceases to amaze and annoy me how easy it is to start overdoing things in golf.

It is a real lesson to learn.

"Golf swings are more like gardens than buildings." -BManZ

 

[Burner]

Sheesh for all the wrong reasons.

Searching for the right phrase, Sheesh! is about right.

On the next to the last hole, two of the guys in my foresome (I know them well) said, "Can we tell you something?" Sure, said I, no problem. "You have played this entire round with your heels about 12 inches apart with the Driver.

Dunno how you are built but with your heels "about 12 inches" apart it is my guess that in a normal golfing posture (bent forwards from the hips) your hands would, most likely, just hang within your feet. What's wrong with that?

Did you fall over when you swung your driver? Did you lose your balance at all when swinging? Did you not manage to pivot correctly in either direction?

My guess; none of the above.

Standing with your feet wide is not a precursor to a good swing and can, indeed, be just the opposite.

You were golfing within your comfort zone, not theirs, and they know zip.

 

[softconsult]

6' 2" with wide shoulders. They also made the comment that it looked like I was losing my balance on the bad swings. I went to the range today and widened the stance. Something like shoulder width for the Driver. Much better ballflight. Wider stance automatically moves the head behind the ball.

The way I describe this drift toward narrower is simply a drift toward a more lazy swing. Easier to rotate, but less athletic and less stability. We'll see how long I can remember to do this little aspect of the setup.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Problem is that most playing partners have little clue as to what is going on in the swing. Even if they do, it's tough to give advice unless it's asked for. The only time I've ever given advice when it was not solicited is if the guy I'm playing with is on pace to shoot triple digits.




3JACK

 

[vjsinger]

6' 2" with wide shoulders. They also made the comment that it looked like I was losing my balance on the bad swings. I went to the range today and widened the stance. Something like shoulder width for the Driver. Much better ballflight. Wider stance automatically moves the head behind the ball.

The way I describe this drift toward narrower is simply a drift toward a more lazy swing. Easier to rotate, but less athletic and less stability. We'll see how long I can remember to do this little aspect of the setup.

I don't know how many times Brian told me to widen my feet yesterday. I'm tall with big shoulders as well. Everything you said makes sense to me.

 

[softconsult]

3Jack, I too follow that rule. That's why my friends waited until the last hole, which was a Par 3. I also agree that most people lack enough knowledge to actually help, but these two do know what they are talking about. Both former single digit players, they are just old. Hell, the 76 year old guy shot 78!

 

[Burner]

Not all men are built equal.

6' 2" with wide shoulders. They also made the comment that it looked like I was losing my balance on the bad swings. I went to the range today and widened the stance. Something like shoulder width for the Driver. Much better ballflight. Wider stance automatically moves the head behind the ball.

The way I describe this drift toward narrower is simply a drift toward a more lazy swing. Easier to rotate, but less athletic and less stability. We'll see how long I can remember to do this little aspect of the setup.

Admittedly I address the ball with my feet ever so slightly flared but even with the 12" gap between my heels the outer edge measure of my feet is 22". That's my shoulder width.

Your narrower stance, you say, allowed you to rotate easier yet you maintain that it is less athletic than your new, more stable, wider stance where rotation by definition has to be more difficult, or less athletic.

Glad to hear that widening your stance has helped but do guard against widening at the expense of pivot.

 

[softconsult]

You are not measuring your stance width in the way most often recommended. Sounds like you are measuring at the outside of
you shoe at the little toe. The way I have always understood it
is at the inside of the heels.

The definition of right angle to the line with rear foot is also tricky
due to the curvature of the foot from ball of foot to little toe. Perpendicular
feels like pigeon toed at the rear foot.

Smiling about the stance width thing. This is nothing new for me. I have played for periods of time from a stupid wide driver stance (about 30 lbs lighter back then). I have just drifted toward too narrow. I will know when the stance starts feeling restrictive.

I did find Brian's stance width rules in the archives.
I quote "

Outsides of your feet to outside of your shoulders with a Full Wedge.
Middle of your feet to the outside of your shoulders with a 6 Iron.
Insides of your feet to the outside of your shoulders with a Driver."

 

[Burner]

Assume the Position!

You are not measuring your stance width in the way most often recommended. Sounds like you are measuring at the outside of
you shoe at the little toe. The way I have always understood it
is at the inside of the heels.

Don't want to be pedantic but I was just observing that if I stood with my heels 12" apart, then the outsides of my feet were in line with the outsides of my shoulders. It felt balanced and comfortable so I suppose my Driver stance, if measured, would not be far removed.

Smiling about the stance width thing. This is nothing new for me. I have played for periods of time from a stupid wide driver stance (about 30 lbs lighter back then). I have just drifted toward too narrow. I will know when the stance starts feeling restrictive.

I did find Brian's stance width rules in the archives.
I quote

"Outsides of your feet to outside of your shoulders with a Full Wedge.
Middle of your feet to the outside of your shoulders with a 6 Iron.
Insides of your feet to the outside of your shoulders with a Driver."

Appreciate the perceived wisdom of the stance widths above but have yet to see any practical evidence of the insides of the feet being outside the extremes of the shoulders on any swings I have reviewed.

That is awfully wide, even allowing for the narrowing of the shoulders that occurs when you grip the club and address the ball. It feels un-athletic, posed and very restrictive as far as efficient pivoting is concerned.

Just my $0.02.

 

[puttmad]

sc and Burner,

The problem here is not really the stance width (although widening it seemed to solve sc's problem)..

The real problem is sc's measurement to the ball at address....by that I mean he is most probably not making an allowance for the fact his right hand is lower on the grip...
sc, if you set up (face on view) with your shoulders too level, you most likely haven't taken the correct measurement from the ball with your right arm,...which leads to your ball flight problems with the narrower stance.

The right side needs to shorten a little to get the right hand low enough to "fit" on the grip in the correct place...this is done with a little axis tilt or little "press" of the right knee, while the right hand is off the club.
You head will now be in the correct place, behind the ball...

 

[tilthatday]

I've heard more than one good instructor say that amateurs ask them to check their swing and pros (and good players) ask them to check their fundamentals: grip, stance, alignment....and then check the swing. Quite often the problem is so basic it can be easily overlooked, even or especially with good players.

 

[jeffreycharris]

I've heard more than one good instructor say that amateurs ask them to check their swing and pros (and good players) ask them to check their fundamentals: grip, stance, alignment....and then check the swing. Quite often the problem is so basic it can be easily overlooked, even or especially with good players.

That is certainly true.

 

[Burner]

One man's meat is...........................

sc and Burner,

The problem here is not really the stance width (although widening it seemed to solve sc's problem)..

The real problem is sc's measurement to the ball at address....by that I mean he is most probably not making an allowance for the fact his right hand is lower on the grip...
sc, if you set up (face on view) with your shoulders too level, you most likely haven't taken the correct measurement from the ball with your right arm,...which leads to your ball flight problems with the narrower stance.

The right side needs to shorten a little to get the right hand low enough to "fit" on the grip in the correct place...this is done with a little axis tilt or little "press" of the right knee, while the right hand is off the club.
You head will now be in the correct place, behind the ball...

Whilst there is some sense in what you are saying, the real problem is that SC's mates observed that his Driver stance was only about 12" wide from inside heel to inside heel - no precise measure from an appropriate position, just guesstimates.

They also observed that he appeared to lose his balance when swinging, on occasion.

SC himself did not report, so presumably did not experience, any loss of balance nor did he think his stance was unusually narrow.

His ball flight issues could have resulted from simply playing his ball too far back in his stance - which could be done wherever he positions his "plates of meat". Thus his mates well intentioned, but simplistic, observations are most likely just that and are, thus, not relevant to his underlying problem.

We have all, most likely, been offered advice from well meaning partners and cringed at the very thought of it.

Notwithstanding, ball position should be determined in relation to low point and that has diddly squat to do with anyone's feet.

 

[puttmad]

...

Notwithstanding, ball position should be determined in relation to low point and that has diddly squat to do with anyone's feet.

Sorry Burner, I don't quite agree with that....

The wider you place your feet the further back your low point goes, relative to your front foot...

Therefore if you tee the ball inside your left heel and increase your stance width, you have effectively moved your low point back, making it easier to hit "up" on the ball...

I personally don't like wide stances, as for me, it makes correct pivoting harder and, I feel, it is detrimental to the long term well-being of the lower back....

 

[vjsinger]

S.C. said the ball flight got "better", but did not say what better is. This is the question I would start with in "solving" this "dilemma". SC said the tee shots were "low"..Why? Are we sure it's because of stance width? How were the "tee shots" better? Trajectory or curvature?? Are we sure this isn't a waste of time "discussing" it? You guys are funny.

 

[softconsult]

Thanks for the advice, but what I think this demonstrates is that diagnosis without all the facts is just about impossible. Without some videos we are just shooting in the dark and communication by written word makes it even more difficult.

I was really just venting about playing the whole round with a wedge width stance for all clubs. The low ball trajectory with the Driver is, no doubt, a combination of things and it's not every shot. Maybe we'll call it old body variability.

I think it was PuttMad guessing about level shoulders and right hand etc. Nope, not that. I have had the basics right for well over 40 years. Irons are fine, as in 140 -150 yard 9 irons higher than the moon and straight, fade, or draw on demand.

Problem is the Driver, launch monitor professionally fitted Titleist D2 10.5 Graphite Design YS 6+ Stiff. I can hit it great or hot hit it great. Depends on the day. That's golf.

 

[puttmad]

...

I think it was PuttMad guessing about level shoulders and right hand etc. Nope, not that. I have had the basics right for well over 40 years. Irons are fine, as in 140 -150 yard 9 irons higher than the moon and straight, fade, or draw on demand.

sc, no disrespect, but setting up the way I said isn't classed as a "basic" (not from the instruction I've seen generally)...

How many instructors teach you to set the right hand with the hand/arm off the club? It's not quite the same as coming into address with the right hand on the club....reverse, in fact...

 

[softconsult]

PuttMad, sorry but your setup theory doesn't apply in my case.

When I took my lesson with Brian a few months ago, the main issue, at my request, was Driver. He made my grip a little stronger. He moved my Driver ball position farther forward. I don't recall him widening my stance. I also don't remember my stance width that day. I do remember him saying that as tall as I was, I needed less axis-tilt and that too much could cause me problems. He got very specific with how the Driver should be soled on the heel. Measuring to the ball? Not mentioned, assume good.

I was zinging the Driver long and straight. But that was range golf, not golf course golf.

 

[vjsinger]

PuttMad, sorry but your setup theory doesn't apply in my case.

When I took my lesson with Brian a few months ago, the main issue, at my request, was Driver. He made my grip a little stronger. He moved my Driver ball position farther forward. I don't recall him widening my stance. I also don't remember my stance width that day. I do remember him saying that as tall as I was, I needed less axis-tilt and that too much could cause me problems. He got very specific with how the Driver should be soled on the heel. Measuring to the ball? Not mentioned, assume good.

I was zinging the Driver long and straight. But that was range golf, not golf course golf.

Softconsult,

Soled on the heel? Lower hands at address? Were you standing too close at address until BManz fixed you? The set-up puttmad describes doesn't apply to me either. As for your original post. I think the main thing the stance width does is put you further behind the ball at address and enables, all swing moves being equal, the golfclub to "swing more under the stick" and shallow you out a little.