Gracovetsky's Spinal Engine Theory
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just watched a video on a gracovetsky site that helps as a visual aid. video #2 at the below link.
gracovetsky/thespinalengine
gracovetsky/thespinalengine
Dear Lia,
Thanks for introducing this 'spine engine' subject, as I believe it has additional benefits for the golf swing in particular besides the obvious rotational activity of the torso.
The first of these benefits involves the inclusion of a comfortable degree of lordosis, which helps the upper bodies dynamic posture AND more importantly, increases the stability potential/margin during the explosive downswing. Also, IMO, this better posture, enhances the golfers ability to not only BBKIB, but also keep the upper, trail side torso back allowing the instantaneous screw axis of rotation to remain in a better position to help the pelvis and lower body balance the rapidly and very significant (up to 100 pounds) 'centripetal' forces developing from the accelerating club, both arms and the torso itself.
More if you wish.
Sincerely,
art
drewyallop
New
Heard a MLB pitching coach talking about monitoring a pitcher's mechanics in a game. Watch the bend of the back (lordosis?). If that starts to decrease the pitcher is getting lazy or tired. Time to get to the mound.
rcw
New
Art,
In regards to "a comfortable degree of lordosis" could you please elaborate on this. TPI instruction seems to want to have minimal curve in the low back. I'm pretty sure they suggest tilting the pelvis in order to take it out. I'm not sure I fully understand this subject, so any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
In regards to "a comfortable degree of lordosis" could you please elaborate on this. TPI instruction seems to want to have minimal curve in the low back. I'm pretty sure they suggest tilting the pelvis in order to take it out. I'm not sure I fully understand this subject, so any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
magicmarker
New
Dear rcw,
Thanks for the specific question, BUT also THANKS to Lia, natep, magicmarker, and mjh for wanting more insight to my comments.
So, mjh, while I have spent some time at TPI and believe I understand the data they provide using their test systems, I do not share their conclusions about the motion of the pelvis as a 'standard' for all golfers.
I have concluded and noted many times on this site that IMO (but based on scientific research studies), dynamic balance and stability margin, especially with the lower body is CRUCIAL for ALL golfers. Also, IMO, the degree to which each torque generating element(s) in the body contributes to the desired maximum/optimum club head speed is different for each golfer depending on their physical attributes, experience with the golf swing etc.
In my studies I have found significant contributions to club head speed coming from the motion of the knees powering the rotation of the pelvis, then the 'spine engine' powering the rotation of the torso/rib cage, the shoulder girdles and scapulae powering the rotation of the clavicles and elevation of the humerus/glenoid of the lead arm, the rotator-cuff powering the rotation of the lead arm, and finally the wrists powering the rotation of the shaft/club head in the later part of the 'release' and downswing.
So I find that to get a true picture of the kinematic sequence of a golfer AND the best estimate of each elements contribution to club head speed, at least the shoulder girdles motions and contributions MUST be understood. I CALL THIS GOLF'S MISSING LINKS to the the double and triple pendulum studies already conducted.
Now back to your question about the degree of 'comfortable' lordosis. IMO, the spine engine working perfectly just rotates the rib cage from which the upper elements are 'launched' with their major contribution to club head speed. The 3D systems of today frequently record maximum torso/rib cage velocities of 600 degree per second, allowing the lead arm to exceed 900 degrees per second, so I see the upper body/torso as a somewhat fast rotating LAUNCH PLATFORM, and not the place or element with which to try to achieve long drive champ status by straining to increase this speed. This is ESPECIALLY TRUE if in doing so, you overpower the lower bodies ability to maintain dynamic balance and stability margin.
So, utilize a comfortable degree of lordosis guaranteeing your rear end is a bit further behind you for better balance with BBKIB, and enjoy the contribution of YOUR Spine Engine, and MY belief in dynamic stability.
Sincerely,
art
lia41985
New member
Art,
Thanks as always. A follow-up question--another poster here asked why the pelvis decelerates and there were some answers given. However, after reading this post of yours another answer or perhaps ultimately the answer is that you have the body, including the lower body, situated particularly at the address position. Pelvis deceleration in the further stages of the swing therefore occurs as a way of preserving dynamic stability/balance given the golfer's address position, no? Thanks for any further thoughts. They are always appreciated.
Thanks as always. A follow-up question--another poster here asked why the pelvis decelerates and there were some answers given. However, after reading this post of yours another answer or perhaps ultimately the answer is that you have the body, including the lower body, situated particularly at the address position. Pelvis deceleration in the further stages of the swing therefore occurs as a way of preserving dynamic stability/balance given the golfer's address position, no? Thanks for any further thoughts. They are always appreciated.
Matt Bryda
New
Art,
Thanks for your response
Would this pelvis stability from a face on view look like the lower body is
on a horse? Like in Jamie Sadlowski's swing?
Thanks for your response
Would this pelvis stability from a face on view look like the lower body is
on a horse? Like in Jamie Sadlowski's swing?
Matt Bryda
New
Thanks Lia
drewyallop
New
Lia,
Do you know why Gracovetsky's book costs so much. Couldn't he self-publish an ebook on Amazon for a lot less money (I am assuming you know him).
Do you know why Gracovetsky's book costs so much. Couldn't he self-publish an ebook on Amazon for a lot less money (I am assuming you know him).
lia41985
New member
Drew,
I haven't had the privilege of knowing or corresponding with him. My guess is there's just not that much relative demand for his work and thus the economics may dictate a higher price. God knows how much work goes into a work like that. I'll be more than happy to loan the book for you if you can pay for shipping costs. Please let me know.
I haven't had the privilege of knowing or corresponding with him. My guess is there's just not that much relative demand for his work and thus the economics may dictate a higher price. God knows how much work goes into a work like that. I'll be more than happy to loan the book for you if you can pay for shipping costs. Please let me know.
Michael Jacobs has done a lot of research on 3d analyses of golf swings and I believe he suggests about 10 degrees of lordosis (back extension) at the top of the back swing. That's about the same amount of lumbar lordosis while standing for the average person. Obviously, it is not the same as just standing due to the rotation involved, though.
drewyallop
New
Dear Lia,
The pelvis decelerates because of everything above it with the high total moment of inertia, and respective high torques push against the counterclockwise rotating pelvis. The degree of deceleration to lower pelvis angular velocities, still leave the pelvis rotating with a positive but reduced angular velocity, typically to about half at impact.
The real interesting characteristic of the pelvis then accelerating after impact for some players is that the movement of the instantaneous screw axis of rotation of the pelvis, FOR DYNAMIC STABILITY REASONS, moves from the vicinity of the rear hip joint to the vicinity of the lead hip joint allowing the rotation of the body to get to the full follow-thru with most of the body weight on the left foot, and the right foot in the classical toe on the ground position.
The analytical process I use to look into all of this is to use the AMM data every 0.004 seconds, subtracting for example, the angular velocities of the torso from the pelvis, a sort of 'inside the kinematic sequence' look to calculate and understand how the torque producing muscles between adjacent rotating body elements are performing. It has become clear to maybe only me, that much of the rotating activity of the pelvis is to provide a stable but rotating platform from which the torso and other upper body elements can use to themselves accelerate rotationally, and is therefore, more of a FOUNDATION REPOSITIONING rather than a major contributor to club head velocity.
Once again, the bottom line is that the pelvis MUST be dynamically stable hopefully with stability margin to be effective in SUPPORTING the upper body elements AND contributing to improved kinematic sequencing and timing.
Sorry for the complexity, but every golfers body has OVER A MILLION DEGREES OF FREEDOM from which it can produce a club head path and velocity capable of moving a golf ball FORWARD. In seeking some sort of an 'optimum' arrangement for yourselves, or your students IMO, depends upon a new and different look and understanding of these areas.
Sincerely,
art
lia41985
New member
Art,
It's late so I will hopefully take additional time later to try to more fully grasp the significance of what you've written. Thanks again for your continued efforts on shedding light on these complex issues. Particularly this notion of an "inside the kinematic sequence" look as well as the golfer having "over a million degrees of freedom." I recently read a highly entertaining interview with Nassim Nicholas Taleb and his works pertaining to stochasticity and complexity seem highly relevant to this discussion, as well. I like to consider myself not just a learner but an interdisciplinary learner. There's a oneness to the seeming disparateness if we open our minds and allow ourselves to be educated. Thanks for aiding me in that process.
It's late so I will hopefully take additional time later to try to more fully grasp the significance of what you've written. Thanks again for your continued efforts on shedding light on these complex issues. Particularly this notion of an "inside the kinematic sequence" look as well as the golfer having "over a million degrees of freedom." I recently read a highly entertaining interview with Nassim Nicholas Taleb and his works pertaining to stochasticity and complexity seem highly relevant to this discussion, as well. I like to consider myself not just a learner but an interdisciplinary learner. There's a oneness to the seeming disparateness if we open our minds and allow ourselves to be educated. Thanks for aiding me in that process.
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