gravity golf - as mentioned by brian

[dsparks]

David Lee's Counterfall Explained

First of all, please let me state that I am no expert in the golf swing but I have read David's book, watched his tapes and been to one of his schools. I also have read TGM, watched Ben's, Brian's, Greg's and Bobby's videos and had one personal lesson from Brian. Here is my take...

Gravity golf advocates a pure swing procedure

It can be used with an early set but David clearly advocates "float loading" like his hero Jack

The body is very weak pivotally because there are very few transverse muscles in the body. Therefore, David Lee advocates a counterfall to begin the pivot of the swing (explained in detail on pages 80 - 88 of his book). The counterfall is an "invisible" move as it is simply a flow of energy from the right foot to the left foot via gravity and then deflecting 70 degrees rearward from the flight line. This deflection, technically speaking, is what David Lee describes as a counterfall. The deflection is necessary to offset or counter the weight of the power package swinging around the spine. All caused by gravity.

My take is that if you are using a pure swinging procedure and without impedence, then this will happen naturally.

I hope this helps.

dennis

 

[Erik_K]

First of all, please let me state that I am no expert in the golf swing but I have read David's book, watched his tapes and been to one of his schools. I also have read TGM, watched Ben's, Brian's, Greg's and Bobby's videos and had one personal lesson from Brian. Here is my take...

Gravity golf advocates a pure swing procedure

It can be used with an early set but David clearly advocates "float loading" like his hero Jack

The body is very weak pivotally because there are very few transverse muscles in the body. Therefore, David Lee advocates a counterfall to begin the pivot of the swing (explained in detail on pages 80 - 88 of his book). The counterfall is an "invisible" move as it is simply a flow of energy from the right foot to the left foot via gravity and then deflecting 70 degrees rearward from the flight line. This deflection, technically speaking, is what David Lee describes as a counterfall. The deflection is necessary to offset or counter the weight of the power package swinging around the spine. All caused by gravity.

My take is that if you are using a pure swinging procedure and without impedence, then this will happen naturally.

I hope this helps.

dennis

Well said. That's what I tried to write in my response on the first page of this topic.

Erik

 

[Steve Khatib]

Axis Tilt brings the hands down with the power package to a selected release point on plane its that simple choices are where it releases. Its simple.

Evershed calls what he teaches a "vertical" drop. When watching the Tomasello vids he uses the same procedure, and drops until his hands are about waist high, then uses his forearm slap.

Gotta say I played my best round of golf using the above procedure, but I find it too high maintenance.

Too many options......... sigh

 

[Perfect Impact]

Gravity is a reality. David's "method" is not a unique system at all; it is a revelation of how gravity affects the body's dynamic balance, how to use it instead of fight it for pure rhythmic harmony, natural release timing, etc.

David is a genius in seeing and knowing what someone is doing. The usual impression gotten from his use of that term is WAY short of its significance: it is not about the arms, the club, or parts as such: it is about the whole body and how ITS WEIGHT AND MASS, in cooperation with that very strong force, can simplify the swing by taking advantage of their natural relationships.

He does not require a float load: it is what HE does but that is only because it works for him. He has lots of models for reference to the essentials: Couples, Nicklaus, Rodriguez, Els, and a host of others who don't talk about the role of gravity ITSELF, but whose swings evince that kind of timing and harmony.

A couple of things will help to clarify SOME of his thesis: a playground swing turns around at the top by gravity in a smooth way AFTER WHAT SEEMS TO BE A PAUSE. The top of a golf swing, if timed in the same way to COOPERATE with gravity rather than fight it will also allow the hands and club to return "without bumps."

A body walks from foot to foot: in the BS weight IS MOVED to the right by heavy arms going over to that side of the body: the DS IS POWERED when the body's center of mass in the midsection FALLS BACK to the left (what some call a bump, others a slide), and IT DRAGS the arms and throws them. When you teach golf at $200 an hour, it is called weight shift; when you talk to your kids, it's called walking. When you talk to your little leaguer, it's called "stepping into the pitch, what I would call "loading," (like taking up the slack in the two rope used for towing cars: the slack is removed before acceleration can affect the towee).

His drills are designed for very specific purposes and he admits that they are pretty bizarre: hardly anyone ever does them as he taught; BUT if you get the message OF what his drills do for you, you can do more user-friendly versions as long as you realize what you're teaching yourself: such as standing with all your weight on your left leg and hitting balls left hand alone (ala J Daly).

The reason EVERYONE admires Couples and Els IS PRECISELY BECAUSE their intuition, at a minimum, recognizes the natural harmony of their COOPERATION with gravity, mostly in the transition at the top and in the smooth flowing sequencing of the DS. That intuition is like that in which people KNOW that some music is truly beautiful even though they can't tell you the reasons why. EVERYONE knows Couples's swing is great without knowing why. EVERYone knows the melodies of the Rachmaninoff 2nd and Grieg Piano Concertos are beautiful -- and in reference to David and Gravity Golf, HE TELLS WHY about good golf.

There is MUCH more to "gravity" in the swing than is guessed from the word alone without its in-depth significance.

Even now, after 60 years of golf, I continue to improve the more I "allow" it and work less hard. Mike Austin used a related concept: a good golf swing is NOT a stressful, tense, laborious motion: it is a quick, light, fast, impulse, a burst of energy: SUPPLE QUICKNESS. And this is possible when the body and mind are deeply relaxed and "into" themselves as can be: and "the slower you move your hand to begin the cracking of the bull whip, the faster and louder the noise you can generate!"

 

[Perfect Impact]

you must not have seen much of his stuff, or he might not have been up to standard when you did. He was a tour player many years ago before injuring his hand. FWIW, his 5' 1" tall, 105# wife, Crickett, hits a drive 230 in the air, using his swing almost exactly as you see in his models and his own swing.

Nicklaus and Trevino have spoken well of him, and N himself wrote something about GG in his foreword to the book, IIRC.

 

[bts]

Turn, spin, rotation.

"The reason EVERYONE admires Couples and Els IS PRECISELY BECAUSE" they both have the purest rotation.

 

[Brian Manzella]

...and they DROP!

 

[Perfect Impact]

Lee never made the illustration you make here, Brian, which you demonstrate clearly and well. What would be nice is showing how "falling from your right femur to the left femur bone" - walking from right to left in the pivot - would also BE falling. So the downswing is a falling of the BODY to the left, not just the arms and club dropping...The falling of the body weight back to the left foot is the power of the pivot, as you know.

 

[JonWil]

The counter fall as explained by D. lee fits in this sequence: The larger back and shoulder muscles "heave the club" from the address position to a point where the club head is furtherst from the ground. As this move is completing there is a point past address, and before waist high, that all tension must leave the arms. D. Lee's "first release". The originating heave must therefore be substantial. As the momentum from the "heave" reacts to an angled right leg, and the club momentum "stalls" and starts to fall left to a top of swing position, 'gravity' pulls the body left and backwards. This left and back gravity induced falling is the counterfall. The theory is that the body will only tolerate this falling up to what D. Lee call's the "body's safety envelop". At that margin the brace of the left leg and the body's intuitive correction to falling will initiate the pivot without effort. D. Lee asserts that the counter fall dynamic offsets the influence of the arms, in the downswing, to pull the body, first to the right and then forward. The greater the counterfall induced the faster you can swing the arms, 'in plane', as a greater counterfall will offset greater (right and forward) forces of the arms. D. Lee cautions that you can only get so much (speed potential) from the counterfall. It will vary by body specifics. The constraint is that the hips, "must clear level". Too wide a stance, for a particular body, will require a level change during the pivot, and introduce the need for the body to use force, to correct the plane of the free-falling arms. D. Lee asserts that this corrective force will require sending energy into the body system and that this is in opposition to the transfer of energy to the ball. Hope this helps with the concept.

 

[scandres]

No surprize to Manz I'm sure.
I spent three days about 10 years ago with David at World Woods. I met David when he was coaching among other players Rocky Thompson out on the senior tour.
David can hit the ball.
He has some very good ideas, especially on putting. I like him as an adjustment teacher, I question his model.
I learned some things from him and like a lot of what he says especially regarding tension.
His drills are difficult and I'm not convinced that they are helpful.
His model looks a lot different from Nicklaus.
I don't see any of his atheletes he promised me would be on tour out there (yet).
Good guy, genuine, interesting approach, not in my top ten but worth seeing if you've got an open mind and are in the area.

 

[johngolf33]

This is a great explanation of dropping and catching it with the Pivot. When you catch the club with the Pivot do you feel the hips are going parallel left, or are they sliding and rotating at the same time parallel to the target line? This seems a lot less violent than trying to push off with the right foot to start the downswing.