Hands at Last Parallel

[natep]

I have a question about this. I've noticed a lot of good players have their hands in front of the right thigh when the shaft is parallel before impact from a face on view. I am having trouble achieving this same position, and my hands are generally behind my right thigh when the shaft is parallel. Are there any specific things I can do to fix this, or is it dependent on too many factors to give a general answer?

If it helps I was looking at some video today and I had about 30 degrees of axis tilt (from face on view) at impact hitting a 6 iron. Is this relevant ?

Thanks for any suggestions!

 

[spktho]

I would say that as long as you are not flipping, a more sweeping release is not a problem.

 

[natep]

I might be playing a well timed flip. I noticed today that the 6 iron had little to no forward lean at impact.

 

[James Marshall (Hogan1953)]

You've got to "carry" the hands more left by putting more torque on the upper lever. I imagine you are under-rotated compared to the typical professional at the same point in the downswing.

 

[duckhook]

Jack Nicklaus was a full sweep releaser in my opinion. In his video "golf my way" he says "it is impossible to release the club too early as long as you move to your left side by properly replanting your left foot at the top of the back swing". I used to laugh at that remark because I could throw the club away with the best of them no mater how I tried to replant my left foot and shift my weight first before releasing the club. From experimentation I found that he was absolutely correct but the key wasn't replanting the left foot, the key was loading the number 3 pressure point (index finger pad) on the back swing and maintaining that pressure feeling on the pad well past the follow through position (both arms straight) until it naturally falls off the index finger just before the finish position. I test myself to see how long i can maintain that number 3 pressure point when I'm at the driving range. I tell you my swing has gotten smooth as silk with no quick and jerky motions. Smooth, deliberate and heavy as Homer would say
natep test yourself at the range. See at what point in the swing you lose that pressure on the index finger pad. From what you are saying I thing you might be throwing it away too early.

 

[DCgolf]

Release

When and where you release the club has as much to do with where the bottom of the swing is as it does power. Jack was an earlier releaser than some (Watson was even earlier). But I believe that very upright swings can and need to be released a little earlier to get the bottom of the arc in front of the ball with an iron; whereas flatter arcs need to hold the angle a bit longer to achieve the same.

 

[natep]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

I went out today and thought about the comment about getting more torque across the left arm. I usually set up with the shaft vertical from a face-on view, with mid-body hands. I noticed on video that I was swinging back into this same position at impact. So today I just set up with my hands more in front of the ball, and tried to swing back to this position. It made a definite improvement, not quite where I want it yet but a step in the right direction for sure. This also had the equivalent effect of more #3pp pressure, for longer, on the downswing. Here's a before and after 6-iron from today:

Before:
[media]http://dc263.4shared.com/img/hfj--EAO/s3/swing0001.jpg[/media]

After:
[media]http://dc263.4shared.com/img/Elfk_DTy/s3/swing0000.jpg[/media]

 

[duckhook]

Excellent point DC
That's what Jim Hardy says also. He says that the "2 planer" has to shallow out his swing otherwise it will be too steep into the ball. He talks about "casting" (early release)being one way to do this. He says David Toms and KJ Choi are examples of casters (Not sure about KJ but I do see it in Toms' swing ). Flat swingers like Hogan held the lag and released as late as possible to add steepness otherwise the swing would be too shallow into the ball. I swing upright and that Is why the full sweep release works so well for me I guess. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[natep]

I have a pretty upright swing also, with my hands well above my head at the top. I have pretty much always had a sweep release.

 

[duckhook]

One thing that also helped me along with maintaining that number 3 pressure point as long as possible is aiming point concept. With the irons I do aim at a point a few inches in front of the ball and lightly outside the plane line . This promotes a inside to out swing. With the driver I aim at the inside aft quadrant of the ball. But i never throw the #3 at those aiming points. I try to smoothly and deliberately drive that number 3 down and THROUGH that aiming point all the way into to finish.

 

[natep]

I dont ever feel the #3PP after impact. I always feel like I throw the club through the ball. I have experimented with maintaining the "lag" but it just results in hitting it lower and shorter, and not particularly straighter.

 

[duckhook]

An upright swing plane already promotes a steeper angle of attack into the ball..if you try to maintain your lag you will steepen it even more and the results will be fat shots then thin shots etc/ Consistency will be very difficult.

 

[duckhook]

Exercise that works for me

Natep
Here is an exercise that I taught myself .I do it at home a lot using a driving range mat in my basement .Since you are an upright swinger and use a full sweep release as I do , I think this should help you.
First I hear and read a lot about mid body hands vs impact hands at address. My thinking is that if the best golfer in history (who swung upright and used a full sweep release)used impact hands at address then there must be a damn good reason for it. I read his book "Golf My Way " and he promotes the "feel" of having the club shaft and left arm in a straight line(his way of saying impact hands). This actually makes more sense later on when he talks about taking the club away with his left shoulder and arm as a unit. If you try taking the club away with your left shoulder and arm as a unit(right arm does nothing except support the club as the left arm and shoulder take the club back) it is much more comfortable to do this from impact hands position then from mid body hands position. (try it and feel the difference).
So from impact hand position I take the club back with my left shoulder and arm as a unit and strive to make a nice shoulder turn and at the top of the back swing I load (let the weight of the club come to rest) on the #3PP.Pause (in the real swing you would not pause..you would immediately transition into the downswing..but for now pause to get the feeling of the weight of the club on the #3PP)...feel the weight of the club on #3pp...then smoothly shift your weight and at the same time concentrate on MAINTAINING that pressure on the number #3PP down and through your aiming point (I use a sponge golf ball at home as my ball and place a penny 4 inches in front of and slightly outside the plane line .This penny is my aiming point for irons,and i forget about the ball.) and maintain that pressure as far as possible into the follow through. Do this in slow motion first,,,then as you get the feel you can start to speed up the swing until you get to full speed. Full speed does not mean herky jerky...You should always be smooth, deliberate and heavy.NEVER jerky or spastic.
One final point,,, Once I get to the top of the swing and the club weight has been loaded onto the #3PP my brain totally forgets about the club shaft and clubhead. The only thing my brain cares about is maintaining that #3PP point and AIMING it (yes aiming the #3pp NOT the club head or shaft) DOWN AND THROUGH the aiming point and maintaining that pressure through the follow through and into the finish. As you get more confident you can become MORE deliberate and heavy but remember NEVER herky jerky...that's hacking.

 

[natep]

Thanks, duckhook, I will certainly try it. That almost exactly describes the "feel" that I was trying to accomplish today.

 

[duckhook]

good luck.. just remember be
SMOOTH, DELIBERATE and HEAVY..NEVER HERKY OR JERKY..other wise look out DUCKHOOK!!
LOL..

 

[ej20]

Just one thing to keep in mind.

Pro's who sweep release and the amateur sweep release is not always the same.Guys like Watson and Nicklaus still have some acummulator angle when the hands reach the right thigh.They only appear to sweep release when compared to maximum trigger delay guys like Garcia and Charles Howell III.

The handicap player that sweep releases have little to no acummulator angle by the time the hands reaches the right thigh.There is a point where a sweep release just becomes a cast.There are going to be a some players who can play very well doing this but they will be rare.

 

[birdie_man]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

I went out today and thought about the comment about getting more torque across the left arm. I usually set up with the shaft vertical from a face-on view, with mid-body hands. I noticed on video that I was swinging back into this same position at impact. So today I just set up with my hands more in front of the ball, and tried to swing back to this position. It made a definite improvement, not quite where I want it yet but a step in the right direction for sure. This also had the equivalent effect of more #3pp pressure, for longer, on the downswing. Here's a before and after 6-iron from today:

Before:
[media]http://dc263.4shared.com/img/hfj--EAO/s3/swing0001.jpg[/media]

After:
[media]http://dc263.4shared.com/img/Elfk_DTy/s3/swing0000.jpg[/media]

To me the after looks immediately better.

I went through times where I tried hands forward at address. Worked in some ways; lower loft and tended toward a more draw face/path combo. (where I was missing right previously)

You try full rolling much? Should get you more lean. Worked great for me. I always overlooked it somewhat, for some reason. Who knew it could work well through the bag...all shots...even fades...

Might be worth it to check out Lindsay Gahm and maybe even Tom Watson for examples of early release too, to compare. But it would seem you might use an upgrade.

 

[birdie_man]

BTW looking at photos, a fair amount of pros, at least often, seem to have their hands further forward of mid-body at address. For what it's worth. I know Brian has had things to say about this...

Interestingly (Brian), I have moved away from it myself.

 

[dbl]

Jack Nicklaus was a full sweep releaser in my opinion. In his video "golf my way" he says "it is impossible to release the club too early as long as you move to your left side by properly replanting your left foot at the top of the back swing".

I'd be careful about taking too much from this JN quote. He has been subsequently quoted as explaining that by "release" he means both arms straight.

 

[Jared Willerson]

Be careful with an "impact hands" type of setup, especially if you feel like you cast it.

Big difference between the pivot stall sweep release versus the sweep release of a Tom Watson as others have stated.

Any time I messed with a forward press type setup, the first thing to move in the downswing and I really had to fight to get my pivot going.

That said...if it's working for you, go for it. Lots of ways to swing it.