palmreader
New
From a testimonial in the HG web site, I gathered it may be around $1000. Some one worte "...best $965 (something like that)spent..."
Henry Griffitts and TGM
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quote:Originally posted by jim_0068
Homer was wrong on that one!
Homer's contention was that the ball had already left the clubface before the clubsole would come into contact with ground, therefore negating the possible imprefect lie angle. Also Homer considered the golfer would be setting up correctly to the ball.
Interesting...Billy McDonald was Jimmy Ballard's former partner 25+ years ago, then a big sponsor of Peter Croker's.....I think it's great that he has found his way to TGM.
Brian, next time you talk with Billy ask him about Sam Byrd. While Ballard thought he was teaching Sam's stuff, Byrd's swing would defintely meet your model, not Ballard's!
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
quote:Originally posted by Martee
quote:Originally posted by jim_0068
Homer was wrong on that one!
Homer's contention was that the ball had already left the clubface before the clubsole would come into contact with ground, therefore negating the possible imprefect lie angle. Also Homer considered the golfer would be setting up correctly to the ball.
Lie angle is important because of what happens BEFORE the club hits the ground actually. Because of the "droop" effect that centrifugal force has on the shaft.
quote:Originally posted by jim_0068
Homer was wrong on that one!
Homer also correctly knew that real golf is not played off perfectly level lies, a fact that clubmakers finally realized, which led to curved soles instead of flat ones. The sweetspot doesn't care what attitude the sole has.
Steve Khatib
Super Moderator
Wrong, off curved lies you will not strike the complete centre of the sweet spot, clubmakers did this so as you could not read a lie angle off a lie board so they all seemed okay at standard.
Jim Cook
New
As one who builds and fits clubs I can't tell you how important getting a proper fitting is.
I've said this before. Since you are on this forum you have found the best swing method by choosing the Golfing Machine. Now to complete that cycle you must get the best fitting. How do you make the best decision in choosing the proper fitter? Get a copy of "In Search of the Perfect Club" by Tom Wishon. As Homer Kelley is THE expert in the swing Tom is THE world expert in desigining and fitting clubs. Armed with the information from Tom's book you will be able to determine what questions you need answered by the fitter.
Steve Khatib
Super Moderator
Tom Wishon is very good, but not the best.
palmreader
New
Jim, Thanks a bunch for that info. I will look up the book in Amazons and give me one more Christmas present. By the way where are you located? You sounds like you know what to do. Do you have a web site? Thanks.
Well one last shot regarding Lie Angle and what I understand from Homer's teachings and writings...
1. Basic Plane Angles (7-6) pretty well explains that the Lie Angle doesnt have to be perfect and provides the logic as to why...
2. Address (7-9) explains why a toe up at address would be of value.
3. Lag Loss (6-C-2-D) and there is another reference which I can't recall at the moment covers shaft flex. A swinger will be more dependent upon the external effects (centrifugal force) than a hitter.
The question is do you fit the club to the golfer's swing or does the golfer fit the swing to the club?
A. Until a golfer is consistent with a stroke, standard clubs should be acceptable unless
(1) The golfer has longer or shorter arms with respect to height
(2) The golfer has larger or smaller hands (This is can be a bigger factor in fitting than flex, lie, length, etc). This can lead to more swing faults and compensations than probably anything else, well other than the mind.
B. Do you fit the golfer to the current stroke or do you fix the stroke and then fit the golfer?
There was an article by a top club designer/fitter a few years ago and his take was spend the money FIRST on lessons, then on clubs. Everyone seems to have it backwards for those who really want to improve was his take. Maybe if there is interest I can find the article again. It was interesting in the fact most clubfitters though they respected him, played down the article.
I have see the Griffits, swung the Griffits, they provide a range of irons for almost anyone and their fitting system is, well it is amazing. On the spot they can have you try what you are going to order, no matter what the combination is.
1. Basic Plane Angles (7-6) pretty well explains that the Lie Angle doesnt have to be perfect and provides the logic as to why...
2. Address (7-9) explains why a toe up at address would be of value.
3. Lag Loss (6-C-2-D) and there is another reference which I can't recall at the moment covers shaft flex. A swinger will be more dependent upon the external effects (centrifugal force) than a hitter.
The question is do you fit the club to the golfer's swing or does the golfer fit the swing to the club?
A. Until a golfer is consistent with a stroke, standard clubs should be acceptable unless
(1) The golfer has longer or shorter arms with respect to height
(2) The golfer has larger or smaller hands (This is can be a bigger factor in fitting than flex, lie, length, etc). This can lead to more swing faults and compensations than probably anything else, well other than the mind.
B. Do you fit the golfer to the current stroke or do you fix the stroke and then fit the golfer?
There was an article by a top club designer/fitter a few years ago and his take was spend the money FIRST on lessons, then on clubs. Everyone seems to have it backwards for those who really want to improve was his take. Maybe if there is interest I can find the article again. It was interesting in the fact most clubfitters though they respected him, played down the article.
I have see the Griffits, swung the Griffits, they provide a range of irons for almost anyone and their fitting system is, well it is amazing. On the spot they can have you try what you are going to order, no matter what the combination is.
blacklabelpro
New
If i can chime in on this one, i think the book implies the direction here. just as the samenesses make more of a difference to less skilled players in technique, so they do equipment as well. Obviously the implication is then that the differences (ala very precisely fitted equipment) will make more of a difference to more skilled players. This is really mizunojoe's point i beleive. Where ive found clubfitting most effective with novice players is when they have a specifically different body type. This is why i use the ping static fitting chart for novices, and the more elaborate systems (i cant afford the griffits deal) for better players. a lot of you are more experienced fitters, does this approach resonate with anyone?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
No doubt that fitted clubs help novices EVERY BIT as much as better players.
Blacklabel,
In my fitting I have almost found the opposite to be true, the better players can make a motion with almost anything, while the novice's motion can be greatly improved with fitted equipment.
That being said, the better players can find that litttle bit of an edge with fitted equipment.
H-G goes well with TGM because they are very similiar in there approach, it is about your swing, not the swing. they both give the instructor many tools to do there job. H-G gives the teacher the opportunity to use all the components per say for fitting, while I do fit other clubs and use their systems, it is like teaching without the periods in g.o.l.f.
The question of lessons first versus fitting depends on how ill fit the clubs are for the student. Very ill fit clubs will make lessons almost useless, while a fit club will allow student to make a much better motion with positive feedback in ball flight.
Do I fit clubs to fix a swing flaw? If that is what the student wants, I will, I prefer not to, but sometimes you don't have a choice.
I would much rather fit a club to the motion the student is making and get the result the student should get with that motion, the reaction will match the swing, as swing improves, reaction improves, sometimes immediately.
Just my two cents,
Todd
In my fitting I have almost found the opposite to be true, the better players can make a motion with almost anything, while the novice's motion can be greatly improved with fitted equipment.
That being said, the better players can find that litttle bit of an edge with fitted equipment.
H-G goes well with TGM because they are very similiar in there approach, it is about your swing, not the swing. they both give the instructor many tools to do there job. H-G gives the teacher the opportunity to use all the components per say for fitting, while I do fit other clubs and use their systems, it is like teaching without the periods in g.o.l.f.
The question of lessons first versus fitting depends on how ill fit the clubs are for the student. Very ill fit clubs will make lessons almost useless, while a fit club will allow student to make a much better motion with positive feedback in ball flight.
Do I fit clubs to fix a swing flaw? If that is what the student wants, I will, I prefer not to, but sometimes you don't have a choice.
I would much rather fit a club to the motion the student is making and get the result the student should get with that motion, the reaction will match the swing, as swing improves, reaction improves, sometimes immediately.
Just my two cents,
Todd
blacklabelpro
New
solid points todd, and now that i piece back some of my experiences in the context you bring up i can see what you mean. novices tend to have fewer preferences or pre-concieved notions in my experience, and over time more drastically change their technique than well established players. do you find this to be true as well and if so, do you try to crystal ball your fittings to where you think they might go or do you only fit for the here and now. this may be a better way of articulating my original point.
tongzilla
New
Guys, you also have to take into account the placebo effect.
I have a friend of mine who teach intermediate level junior golfers (10-15 yrs). In the middle of a lesson, he would go into his office to grab a "custom" set of clubs. Of course, the set wasn't custom fit, he didn't even measure the student! It would just be another set of new looking clubs that fit roughly the size of that golfer. But 9/10 times, the student will hit better shots.
Now would this trick work for adults? Who knows...but probably yes I think.
I have a friend of mine who teach intermediate level junior golfers (10-15 yrs). In the middle of a lesson, he would go into his office to grab a "custom" set of clubs. Of course, the set wasn't custom fit, he didn't even measure the student! It would just be another set of new looking clubs that fit roughly the size of that golfer. But 9/10 times, the student will hit better shots.
Now would this trick work for adults? Who knows...but probably yes I think.
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