Hitting and swinging at the same time?
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
On the road again....
I have answered this question several times, but I'll take another go at it, to try to be clearer.
Homer Kelley had an opinion that a golfer could either PULL or PUSH the club during the swing. He also had an opinion that you couldn't do both at he same time.
He called PULLING "Swinging" or "Drag Loading," and he call PUSHING "Hitting" or "Drive Loading."
After almost 20 years of teaching from The Golfing Machine as an Authorized Instructor (someone who completed the company training—I eventually rose to the highest level, G.S.E.D.), I came to the conclusion that there was a third way to move the club—"Pure Swinging."
You see, TGM "Swinging," which I'll refer to here as DRAG LOADING, is in effect, applying a force ALONG THE SHAFT.
And TGM "Hitting," which I'll refer to here as DRIVE LOADING, is in effect, applying a force ACROSS THE SHAFT.
I was doing some research experiments with "Pure Swinging," a no-torque movement espoused by the late famous golf instructor Ernest Jones, who wrote a couple of books on the technique. During this research it became evident to me that this method was neither force ALONG THE SHAFT, nor force ACROSS THE SHAFT.
I told Dr. Aaron Zick, a Physicist that The Golfing Machine, LLC has had speak at the last three TGM Summits on REAL SCIENCE as it occurs in the golf swing.
Dr. Zick agreed with my theory, and dubbed the three different actions:
Dr. Zick showed in his presentation the very next year, how a golfer mathematically MUST use both DRAG LOADING and DRIVE LOADING in the same swing—and for a time, at THE SAME TIME—to aplly MAXIMUM force to the ball.
This prescription calls for DRAG LOADING during the beginning of the downswing, until the shaft is vertical-to-the-ground for the last time before impact, and then he MUST apply DRIVE LOADING while at the same time continuing to apply DRAG LOADING through impact.
This winter, on a research trip to Karsten Manufacturing's PING campus, to meet with PING's resident physicist Dr. Paul Wood, I learned that the golfer must also VARY this drag loading acceleration throughout the set to produce perfect impact alignments.
So I guess the answer to your questions is:
You better.
I have answered this question several times, but I'll take another go at it, to try to be clearer.
Homer Kelley had an opinion that a golfer could either PULL or PUSH the club during the swing. He also had an opinion that you couldn't do both at he same time.
He called PULLING "Swinging" or "Drag Loading," and he call PUSHING "Hitting" or "Drive Loading."
After almost 20 years of teaching from The Golfing Machine as an Authorized Instructor (someone who completed the company training—I eventually rose to the highest level, G.S.E.D.), I came to the conclusion that there was a third way to move the club—"Pure Swinging."
You see, TGM "Swinging," which I'll refer to here as DRAG LOADING, is in effect, applying a force ALONG THE SHAFT.
And TGM "Hitting," which I'll refer to here as DRIVE LOADING, is in effect, applying a force ACROSS THE SHAFT.
I was doing some research experiments with "Pure Swinging," a no-torque movement espoused by the late famous golf instructor Ernest Jones, who wrote a couple of books on the technique. During this research it became evident to me that this method was neither force ALONG THE SHAFT, nor force ACROSS THE SHAFT.
I told Dr. Aaron Zick, a Physicist that The Golfing Machine, LLC has had speak at the last three TGM Summits on REAL SCIENCE as it occurs in the golf swing.
Dr. Zick agreed with my theory, and dubbed the three different actions:
No Torque - Ernest Jones "Pure Swinging"
Positive Torque - Homer Kelley TGM—force ACROSS THE SHAFT— Drive Load "Hitting"
Negative Torque - Homer Kelley TGM—force ALONG THE SHAFT— Drag Load "Swinging"
Positive Torque - Homer Kelley TGM—force ACROSS THE SHAFT— Drive Load "Hitting"
Negative Torque - Homer Kelley TGM—force ALONG THE SHAFT— Drag Load "Swinging"
Dr. Zick showed in his presentation the very next year, how a golfer mathematically MUST use both DRAG LOADING and DRIVE LOADING in the same swing—and for a time, at THE SAME TIME—to aplly MAXIMUM force to the ball.
This prescription calls for DRAG LOADING during the beginning of the downswing, until the shaft is vertical-to-the-ground for the last time before impact, and then he MUST apply DRIVE LOADING while at the same time continuing to apply DRAG LOADING through impact.
This winter, on a research trip to Karsten Manufacturing's PING campus, to meet with PING's resident physicist Dr. Paul Wood, I learned that the golfer must also VARY this drag loading acceleration throughout the set to produce perfect impact alignments.
So I guess the answer to your questions is:
You better.
So I guess the answer to your questions is:
You better.
Holy shmolly, thanks a million bro. I am struggling to get used to using just DRAG LOADING with my swing and somehow always ending up hitting down some towards the last quadrant of the down swing. Always had me frustrated and me blaming the 'hitting' for some of the bad shots that came around.
Now that I know better, that's one possibility eliminated.
Regards.
welshdentist
New
Brian has a good explanation and demo of this is in his soft draw video
i think brian advocates the no torque "pure swing" in shorts chips, pitches, and perhaps putts, but it won't provide the umph required for today's game. it's a great way to establish tempo, etc.
the sd pattern is no torque until the end of the backswing, then drag, then drive.
Richie3Jack
New
I can only speak for myself, I'm far, far more accurate and consistent with hitting over swinging. And I've done both and have had a FLW at impact with both. Swinging gave me more power when I really executed right, but on average I hit it longer with hitting because I hit it off the sweetspot on such a consistent basis (my average Smash Factor with a driver the other day was 1.52). But, I'll use swinging techniques with short shots, especially flops.
Gotta find the pattern and the components that work for you and generally I believe you're better off taking what you have and just focus on the root cause(s) of your problems. Far easier that way.
3JACK
Just to be fair to Brian, whose site this...I found one of his posts about hitting being less efficient:
from http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...03-should-i-keep-my-right-wrist-bent-not.html
from http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...03-should-i-keep-my-right-wrist-bent-not.html
Brian Manzella
Administrator
...in progress...
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Answers...
I took this thread down for a couple of days.
It needed a lot of work.
If you made a post that was taken away, PM me about it.
What is left here is good stuff....Bmanz
It is—from a mathematical perspective—better for distance than Drive Loading, and not as good a Drag Loading.
But really, so what?
Pure Swinging is as useless on full shots in competitive golf as the other two.
Why?
This is what the MATH SAYS (remembering that the math was done by a REAL physicist):
The "Pure Swinging" /No-Torque approach is better for learning a golf "swing" and better for certain shots, in my opinion.
If any Tour pros used this approach, they'd have been very short hitters.
Good Answer.
You think you are a "hitter."
You are using a certain pattern that may be called "hitting," or you are using elements of a pattern—or certain FEELS—that make you think, or someone say, you are "hitting"....
But, you are not.
You may be using the right arm more for Force Across the Shaft.
But you are NOT "hitting."
You are PULLING LIKE CRAZY, which means you are "Swinging" too.
EVERYONE who can hit it out of their shadow is USING BOTH.
You have to.
But, if calling yourself a "hitter," or making a pattern that is called "hitting" makes you PLAY BETTER, go right ahead a do it.
Call it "Ishcabibbling" or anything you want.
Keep hitting it good.
You are NOT "hitting."
Any form of "Swinging" is INFINITELY BETTER than pure hitting, which may not even exist anywhere on earth on full swings.
To be perfectly honest.
If you made a Never Slice Again 2 swing, er...pattern, and you did the "Twistaway" about halfway, made a short backswing, got you right elbow more behind and less in front on the way to "Striking the box," and did NO twisting past impact, that would be a pattern that would work, and some would call "Hitting."
It won't be any more Driving or dragging or Hitting or Swinging than it was before.
It would be a slightly different pattern.
Period.
Let me re-write that for you....
Most people would fall in that category.
Lots of folks would find out the same thing.
But Richie, if we put you in a 6° 3D machine, and put strain gauges on your shaft, and stuck needles in your body to measure which muscles were firing...
You be doing virtually the SAME DAMN THING YOU WERE DOING THE OTHER WAY.
You are NOT hitting.
No one can and hit it anywhere.
Period.
Everyone who has done tests like the one above, who thought they could get a measurement device to measure a difference between swinging and hitting failed miserably!
You are doing a better job of controlling the TRUE clubface, the TRUE clubhead path, without sacrificing power.
So,
You are not hitting.
But so what?
Go play good.
I took this thread down for a couple of days.
It needed a lot of work.
If you made a post that was taken away, PM me about it.
What is left here is good stuff....Bmanz
It is—from a mathematical perspective—better for distance than Drive Loading, and not as good a Drag Loading.
But really, so what?
Pure Swinging is as useless on full shots in competitive golf as the other two.
Why?
This is what the MATH SAYS (remembering that the math was done by a REAL physicist):
Drag Loading - 85% of the maximum clubhead speed possible by a golfer.
Drive Loading - less than 60% of the maximum clubhead speed possible by a golfer.
Pure Swinging - Somewhere in the middle of those two, buy undoubtably closer to 85%
Drive Loading - less than 60% of the maximum clubhead speed possible by a golfer.
Pure Swinging - Somewhere in the middle of those two, buy undoubtably closer to 85%
The "Pure Swinging" /No-Torque approach is better for learning a golf "swing" and better for certain shots, in my opinion.
If any Tour pros used this approach, they'd have been very short hitters.
Good Answer.
You think you are a "hitter."
You are using a certain pattern that may be called "hitting," or you are using elements of a pattern—or certain FEELS—that make you think, or someone say, you are "hitting"....
But, you are not.
You may be using the right arm more for Force Across the Shaft.
But you are NOT "hitting."
You are PULLING LIKE CRAZY, which means you are "Swinging" too.
EVERYONE who can hit it out of their shadow is USING BOTH.
You have to.
But, if calling yourself a "hitter," or making a pattern that is called "hitting" makes you PLAY BETTER, go right ahead a do it.
Call it "Ishcabibbling" or anything you want.
Keep hitting it good.
You are NOT "hitting."
Any form of "Swinging" is INFINITELY BETTER than pure hitting, which may not even exist anywhere on earth on full swings.
To be perfectly honest.
If you made a Never Slice Again 2 swing, er...pattern, and you did the "Twistaway" about halfway, made a short backswing, got you right elbow more behind and less in front on the way to "Striking the box," and did NO twisting past impact, that would be a pattern that would work, and some would call "Hitting."
It won't be any more Driving or dragging or Hitting or Swinging than it was before.
It would be a slightly different pattern.
Period.
Let me re-write that for you....
"I'm far better off not opening the clubface and rolling my left arm open on the backswing...."
Most people would fall in that category.
"I'm far better not thinking about pulling anything on the downswing, because I probably pull to much with my arms instead of my pivot. Not thinking about that, or trying to get my right elbow to lead me into impact works better for me."
Lots of folks would find out the same thing.
"I'm far better off using my right arm straightening and my right shoulder slowing, to improve my sequence through the ball."
There is a certain percentage of people, maybe less than 20%, that would find the same thing.
But Richie, if we put you in a 6° 3D machine, and put strain gauges on your shaft, and stuck needles in your body to measure which muscles were firing...
You be doing virtually the SAME DAMN THING YOU WERE DOING THE OTHER WAY.
You are NOT hitting.
No one can and hit it anywhere.
Period.
Everyone who has done tests like the one above, who thought they could get a measurement device to measure a difference between swinging and hitting failed miserably!
You are doing a better job of controlling the TRUE clubface, the TRUE clubhead path, without sacrificing power.
So,
You are not hitting.
But so what?
Go play good.
(Both Swingers and Hitters delay their Release for Maximum Power. This is the Sameness (1-K). The Difference is that Swingers Load and Delay the Release of their Left Wrist. Hitters Load and Delay the Release of their Right Elbow).
Is it physically possible to do these two actions in one swing?
Is it physically possible to do these two actions in one swing?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Well, I have seen players who delay the heck out of both.
Try Thomas Bartlett:
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Richie3Jack
New
That's a great way to put it. I've never doubted that everybody who hits it worth their salt does a bit of both, but I get people who ask me about it now and if I just say 'well, we all do a bit of both' then it would not convey what I do to them. Although my swing feel is incredibly simpler than that.
Great post.
3JACK
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Here is my point.
When I "name" one of my patterns, it is done with a lot of thought.
Marketing is one of the things that enter into it, but part of it is what it conveys to the student.
Many of my patterns work together, and the amount of cross-compatible un-named "Manzella-Patterns" are many.
That's why I plane to do a video called the blender, with a dozen or so patterns you can put together using other Manzella-Patterns.
Homer Kelley was fascinated with trying to prove that you didn't have to "swing" a club, to move it and hit the ball.
It was obvious to "naked-eye" observers of golf swings, that some folks LOOKED LIKE THEY WERE HITTING AT THE BALL, like Arnold Palmer, and some folks LOOKED LIKE THEY WERE SWINGING AT THE BALL, ala Jack Nicklaus.
So he put together a pattern that made this so-called "hitting" a set of doable actions.
Was it doable as Homer Kelley said?
Sure.
But just like every other pattern that works, it only fits a small percentage of all golfers.
The PROBLEM with that HK "hitting"?"Drive Loading" pattern, and the TERM "Hitting" is that I have seen it ruin a lot of golfers trying to do it.
And, because, well, you can't actually "HIT," and Hit it anywhere.
So, someone has to tell the truth, and that someone is me.
Funny thing is, if they wired up 1964 Palmer and Nicklaus, Nicklaus might have more force across the shaft than Palmer!
rogerdodger
New
Great post, one other observation. As someone who is told he is a swinger, I have a real issue with pulling too much in the downswing. My question, if one is only pulling, how would the left arm blast off the chest? The hitting element is necessary to propel the left arm off.
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