Hitting and swinging at the same time?

[Brian Manzella]

Great post, one other observation. As someone who is told he is a swinger, I have a real issue with pulling too much in the downswing. My question, if one is only pulling, how would the left arm blast off the chest? The hitting element is necessary to propel the left arm off.

Let me re-rephase that question for you:

As someone who is told he is person who pulls the club lengthwise from the top & through impact, I have a real issue with pulling too much in the downswing. My question, if one is only pulling, how would the left arm blast off the chest?

Is pushing across the shaft with the right arm a necessary element to propel the left arm off off the chest?

There is a proper way to move the club from the top.

Your PIVOT should pull on the club lengthwise from the top, with just enough pulling assistance from your arms to keep the proper positioning of the arms to the body.

This pulling only acceleration must slow for every club around the last time the club is vertical to the ground prior to impact.

For the Driver, there should be a small deceleration from this point on in the pivot pulling force.

Some force across the shaft is necessary for release in full power shots at—or near—this last vertical location.

Of course, you may feel all sorts of different things.

 

[savydan]

Kinda like 5 Lessons. Can we dump the "science" now in the yellow book and just keep the terminology?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Kinda like 5 Lessons. Can we dump the "science" now in the yellow book and just keep the terminology?

Lots of science in The Golfing Machine. But it is NOT a "scientific" book by any measure.

There are numerous ways to move the club through the ball.

TGM's versions of "Hitting" and "Swinging" are just not the only or best ways to do it. And that's a fact.

 

[savydan]

Agree, of course. There's no reason not to use the best technology available at the current time to test and develop ideas.

My main point is that I think there are some folks here (perhaps newer ones) that seem to want to equate and fit the newer concepts into the older ones and they don't always match up.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Agree, of course. There's no reason not to use the best technology available at the current time to test and develop ideas.

My main point is that I think there are some folks here (perhaps newer ones) that seem to want to equate and fit the newer concepts into the older ones and they don't always match up.

That's a problem in general with all golf instruction. Brian's posts have helped out a lot because I've believed that everybody does some 'swinging' and some 'hitting' in the swing, but as somebody who uses force across the shaft I don't think saying 'I do both' really conveys the point to those who ask about it, but technically it's incorrect to just say 'I just push with my right hand' either.

You wanna be as accurate as possible, without confusing the person asking the question.

Anyway, once I understood that TGM was a book about feel, which is hardly scientific, that's when things started to blossom. I try to convey that to people who ask me about it as well, but they seem to focus on the mechanical and technical lingo.




3JACK

 

[Brian Manzella]

I try to convey that to people who ask me about it as well, but they seem to focus on the mechanical and technical lingo (of The Golfing Machine).

Only because some folks promote it as SCIENCE.

As a of book of golfing ideas, The Golfing Machine is an A++

As a English term paper, The Golfing Machine is a D+

As a Physics term paper, The Golfing Machine is a C-

As a method instruction book, The Golfing Machine is a B-

 

[savydan]

You wanna be as accurate as possible, without confusing the person asking the question.

Exactly. That's why I think using the terms Hitting and Swinging (in capital letters implying the yellow book definitions) does, in fact, confuse some folks who come in thinking that that swings are purely one or the other, or that Switting is something to avoid.

Maybe I'm being a bit altruistic, but I think that "we" should be conscious of the idea that some folks have these notions coming in.

 

[teeithigh]

WHY WHY?? I make the LOUDEST SWISH noise (holding the clubhead and just swinging the grip end) when i just use my left arm..it's as if my right hand and arm slow the club..could this be related to "swinging vs. hitting" ??

 

[savydan]

So with your Swish drill, do you think you are applying a force purely along the shaft, or purely across the shaft?

 

[JeffM]

Brian - you wrote-: "Dr. Zick showed in his presentation the very next year, how a golfer mathematically MUST use both DRAG LOADING and DRIVE LOADING in the same swing—and for a time, at THE SAME TIME—to apply MAXIMUM force to the ball.

This prescription calls for DRAG LOADING during the beginning of the downswing, until the shaft is vertical-to-the-ground for the last time before impact, and then he MUST apply DRIVE LOADING while at the same time continuing to apply DRAG LOADING through impact."

You state that the golfer must apply drag loading in the early downswing - until the clubshaft is vertical to the ground for the last time. When is that "last time"? It is my understanding that the clubshaft is only vertical to the ground (from a face-on perspective) at one time point in the downswing - as demonstrated in the following capture image from the Tiger Woods Nike commercial video.

Is that the time point that you writing about, and should a golfer start to apply drive loading at this time point in the downswing?

Jeff.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Brian - you wrote-: "Dr. Zick showed in his presentation the very next year, how a golfer mathematically MUST use both DRAG LOADING and DRIVE LOADING in the same swing—and for a time, at THE SAME TIME—to apply MAXIMUM force to the ball.

This prescription calls for DRAG LOADING during the beginning of the downswing, until the shaft is vertical-to-the-ground for the last time before impact, and then he MUST apply DRIVE LOADING while at the same time continuing to apply DRAG LOADING through impact."

You state that the golfer must apply drag loading in the early downswing - until the clubshaft is vertical to the ground for the last time. When is that "last time"? It is my understanding that the clubshaft is only vertical to the ground (from a face-on perspective) at one time point in the downswing - as demonstrated in the following capture image from the Tiger Woods Nike commercial video.

Is that the time point that you writing about, and should a golfer start to apply drive loading at this time point in the downswing?

Jeff.

The clubshaft is "more or less" vertical to the ground at address, & once more on the backswing, before the spot where Tiger is. It is then often vertical one more time past the ball.

The pic of Tiger is where you want to apply this force across the shaft, which may come from places you wouldn't think of off hand‚like the left wrist.

 

[JeffM]

Brian - OK. We seem to agree that your "idea" of applying drive loading in the downswing starts at this time point in the downswing. My real question then becomes-: "How is this possible?"

Drive loading is applied by the right upper limb and you state that it is applied "across the shaft". Could you please explain how this happens from a biomechanical perspective? I would also like to know how one can apply a drive loading push-pressure force to the clubshaft while the clubshaft is simultaneously being subjected to drag loading forces due to the release of PA#4 and then PA#2?

Here is an example of "pure" drag loading - a "pure" left arm swing action.

YouTube - One armed Golfer

I can see how his clubshaft is being accelerated in the mid-late downswing due to the sequential release of PA#4 and then PA#2 (which is a passive centrifugal-induced release). Now, you are implying that a golfer should apply an additional push-force in the mid-downswing (when the clubshaft passes the vertical position) while the clubshaft is being passively released via a centrifugal-induced action. How can a golfer coordinate a push-force applied radially to the club (using the axe handle technique of drive loading) while the club is being subjected to a drag loading pull-force (using a rope handle technique)?

Jeff.

 

[puttmad]

Jeff,

Do you remember (and understand) the phrase, "Stimulation, response, reaction" from your MA studies?...

Apply that to this and you have your answer.....

 

[savydan]

Jeff,

You're saying that you cannot put a force along the shaft and put a force across the shaft at the same time?

 

[pecky987]

Jeff,

You're saying that you cannot put a force along the shaft and put a force across the shaft at the same time?

cos if he is, hes wrong

 

[savydan]

Ought to be interesting.

 

[jeffy]

Brian - OK. We seem to agree that your "idea" of applying drive loading in the downswing starts at this time point in the downswing. My real question then becomes-: "How is this possible?"

Drive loading is applied by the right upper limb and you state that it is applied "across the shaft". .

Learn how to read, Einstein:

The pic of Tiger is where you want to apply this force across the shaft, which may come from places you wouldn't think of off hand‚like the left wrist.

 

[willgolfer]

are you the same Jeffy from the Jim Hardy forum?

 

[jeffy]

are you the same Jeffy from the Jim Hardy forum?

Who else?

 

[JeffM]

Jeff,

You're saying that you cannot put a force along the shaft and put a force across the shaft at the same time?

Of course one can apply a push force across the shaft and a pull force along the shaft at the same time. However, I cannot envisage that a good golfer can successfully coordinate these two forces in a single golf swing motion.

In a swinger's action, the golfer applies swing power by releasing PA#4. Then, the club releases passively according to the law of the flail. If the club is releasing passively, then I cannot understand how one can usefully/efficiently apply a push force across the shaft at the same time without interfering with the centrifugally-induced release action.