Hogan at the Open
- Thread starter Kevin Shields
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If we're going to start determining who's the greatest US Open competitor by narrowing our time frame, then Rory is clearly the best because he holds the scoring record. Or is it Tiger because he holds the record for margin of victory? Or is it Johnny Miller because he shot the lowest round at the toughest course?
The point is, many great players do many great things in selected time periods. That's why you judge the overall greatest by their body of work. The last time I checked, nobody puts an asterisk by Nicklaus's 18 majors because it took him a long time to do it.
Not that this has anything to do with the theme of this thread....was Ben Hogan prone to choking in US Opens.
The point is, many great players do many great things in selected time periods. That's why you judge the overall greatest by their body of work. The last time I checked, nobody puts an asterisk by Nicklaus's 18 majors because it took him a long time to do it.
Not that this has anything to do with the theme of this thread....was Ben Hogan prone to choking in US Opens.
Dariusz J.
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OK, let's go with your way of thinking. Let's then compare the best chosen periods of carreers. No matter if you choose 3 years or 5 noone is close to Hogan. Of the 11 majors that Hogan contested between 1948 and 1953 he won 8 of them which gives an invincible percentage of over 70%. Of the three majors he didn't win during this period he was not worse than 7th. Noone is close to this.
I won't mention overall percentage of top 10's or percentage of tournaments won in all tournaments since the difference would be even more devastating.
Cheers
Of the last 8 US opens Jones played in, he finished first or or tied for first in 6 of them!
Of the last 12 Open Championships he played in, he finished first or second 11 times.
Those are just his stats against everybody. If we include the amateur (a major of that era) it's even more ridiculous.
We cant compare players of different eras, but NOBODY dominated AN era like Bobby Jones from 1923-1930.
Of the last 12 Open Championships he played in, he finished first or second 11 times.
Those are just his stats against everybody. If we include the amateur (a major of that era) it's even more ridiculous.
We cant compare players of different eras, but NOBODY dominated AN era like Bobby Jones from 1923-1930.
You're missing the point entirely by again picking out a specific time period and pointing out how great Hogan was in this time period. That's exactly why your argument doesn't hold water; it's not talking about an entire body of work. One could just as easily point out that Tiger won 4 in a row (something Jack or Hogan never did), and he absolutely destroyed the fields in doing so. Nobody was even a close second.
Look at Hogan's entire body of work. Did Hogan ever win 4 majors in a row? Did he ever win a major by 15 shots? Did he win 18 majors? Did he win 14 majors?
If you want to talk about the best ever at any sport, you have to look at the whole career. Otherwise you're just playing a stats game and focusing on the ones that favor your position.
Or else you're just talking about who had the best season, best 3 year period, etc. That's a different discussion entirely.
Look at Hogan's entire body of work. Did Hogan ever win 4 majors in a row? Did he ever win a major by 15 shots? Did he win 18 majors? Did he win 14 majors?
If you want to talk about the best ever at any sport, you have to look at the whole career. Otherwise you're just playing a stats game and focusing on the ones that favor your position.
Or else you're just talking about who had the best season, best 3 year period, etc. That's a different discussion entirely.
This argument is much more compelling because it covers a greater percentage of Jones's career. It opens up the need for another thread, because I do think you have to take into account the difference in competition when you go back that far. There were some great players, but there wasn't enough money in the game to support 50 people who had a chance to win the tournament. You had Jones and Hagen and a few others who had a chance. Most of the rest of the field was window dressing.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
All good points but the purpose of this thread was that I totally found it fascinating that there were so many weekend scores that seemed to spell some sort of collapse. I never knew this and wondered about the circumstance. When I think of champion gofers, I'm thinking nerves of steel, etc. Tiger's closing ratio is astounding, having never lost a lead in a major. I'm not aware (although there could be) of any final round collapses by Nicklaus when he was near the lead in an Open, or any other Major for that matter. Does anyone know of any 2nds or 3rds from Jack that were his unravelling?
Dariusz J.
New member
I agree with Bobby Jones's record in the US Open. It is the best but his only out-of-top10 performance spoils a bit the whole picture; Hogan's worst rank was 6th. But even Jones cannot have the percentage of wins (majors or overall) Hogan had between 1948 and 1953.
I do not think I miss the point. It is natural to compare best periods of their carreers. Woods may have the best 1 year period, Nelson may have the best half-a-year period but starting from 2 years ending at 6 or 7 years Hogan was the best.
Hogan did not win 4 in a row but he wasn't given a chance to; his 1953 year has the best percentage ever and the best year any golfer ever had.
Cheers
This point I agree totally with.
Cheers
Just to show that scores don't always tell the story, Nicklaus blew a two shot lead with three holes to play at Medinah in the 1975 US Open, hooking his tee shots on 16 and 18 and finishing bogey, bogey, bogey. He shot 72, a respectable score, but missed out on a playoff by two shots.
Thats a collapse by its very definition. What does it mean? He's human.
Thats a collapse by its very definition. What does it mean? He's human.
Tiger lost the 2009 PGA after holding the 54 hole lead. I think he had the 4th round lead at this year's Masters (mid round) and lost.
Those are the only two lapses I can remember.
I agree that his closing record when in contention is incredible.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
I remember it like it was yesterday.
Thanks for bringing it up.
It gets everybody—if they were good enough too get there........a bunch.
S
SteveT
Guest
Ain't memories great ... now back to the future ....
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
If its all the same to you SteveT, we'll keep this thread on topic.
Thanks ekennedy, I didn't know that and was trying to make a Nicklaus vs Hogan debate. I did know that about Tiger but had forgotten.
Thanks ekennedy, I didn't know that and was trying to make a Nicklaus vs Hogan debate. I did know that about Tiger but had forgotten.
Hogan is also the only guy to ever 3 putt the last hole to lose the Masters! And remember Arnie's historic 7 shot collapse at Olympic in 66. I think the point is every great athlete has "blown it" at one time or another. But it's like Trevino said "just gimme a chance to choke". If you're there as often as these guys were it's bound to happen. Darius as far as winning percentage, Jones played in 19 majors from 23-30. He won 13 of them. Percentages? And he only played majors for the most part. The year of the grand slam he played less than 50 rounds. Pretty good once a week player.
DCGolf...I don't know the answer so I'm just asking....Do you think Jones played against fields that had depth comparable to the fields that Hogan faced? or Nicklaus faced? or Tiger has faced?
I'm no golf historian, but it makes sense to me that golf would attract more and more high quality players as the money in the game has increased.
I'm no golf historian, but it makes sense to me that golf would attract more and more high quality players as the money in the game has increased.
No of course not. All anyone can do is beat the players of their era. Somebody always comes on top. Vardon, Jones, Hogan, Nicklaus and Tiger are the 5 who came out on top. They beat everybody at THEIR time. That makes them the best. There are probably a lot of guys who would beat Jones right now. Not even top guys really. That is one side of the debate. The other side is guys like Jones, Nicklaus, etc were just the type of people who would find a way to win.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Hogan reminds me of Sandy Koufax in a way. Dominate for such a short period of time that they can't be ranked in some respects. Nicklaus clearly has the best Open record. Most wins, most seconds, most top 5s, most top 10s. Just like Koufax does not rank in most wins....didn't have the longevity, which has to count for something. I'm under the impression that Koufax was universally accepted as the dominant pitcher of his day, as Tiger was in his prime. I've noticed reading over the years that it seemed Nelson and Snead seemed very respectful but hesitant to gush over Hogan. I doubt those two felt he was better than they were. That's why guys like Trevino and then Watson were so good as well.
Sorry for this rambling array of thoughts
Sorry for this rambling array of thoughts
drewyallop
New
My opinion only: focussing on last round is the wrong approach. First define "collapse". Then determine how many collapses in each round. Then find out if the frequency of collapses in the last round is significantly higher than the other rounds.
Maybe collapses are evenly distributed among the rounds.
Or take it further. Run an analysis of all scores (logit, principle components, etc.) against independent variables like player, round number, opponents score, weather, time of day, players historical average score and so on.
Any statisticians in the crowd?
Maybe collapses are evenly distributed among the rounds.
Or take it further. Run an analysis of all scores (logit, principle components, etc.) against independent variables like player, round number, opponents score, weather, time of day, players historical average score and so on.
Any statisticians in the crowd?
Dariusz J.
New member
So much again for your being a huge Hogan fan. Do not ever mention that you're such. True Hogan fan would not have any doubts who's the best US Open player ever.
6 or 7 years of total unsurpassed domination is short period of time ???
BTW, your Nicklaus, despite the best ballstriker quote, admitted also that Hogan should be placed on a higher pedestal than all the rest of the field (he used the word "we", so he included himself). But what he knew anyway.
Cheers
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