Hogan at the Open
- Thread starter Kevin Shields
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Kevin Shields
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Actually Kevin's analogy was pretty spot on...for the first part of their careers both Hogan and Koufax were pretty mediocre, even piss poor at times. Koufax with lack of control and Hogan with a bad ass hook. Then they caught fire. Hogan from 46/7 to 53 and K from 62-66. But if you look at great open players a lot of them were short lived; 6,7,8 years. Willie Anderson, Jones, Nelson, Hogan, Guldahl, Palmer, Watson. After Hogan had his triple slam he never won again, Palmer 58-62, Watson 75-82, after Guldahl back to backed, he was done. I'm not saying their careers were short but if greatness is defined by majors, their run at the top was brief. Hell two years after Nelson won 19 events he was gone. Cutis Strange back to back, never won again. Anything. Majors are different. Jack is the best exception, Gary Player, Vardon. But mostly it's short.
Dariusz J.
New member
This is getting ridiculous. Blind ??? If the results are very comparable (I can present the case the way Hogan wins as well as Jones or Nicklaus, too) a true fan will always vote correctly and will try to find correct arguments. Blind would mean that one tries to argue that e.g. the best in the US Open history was Jack Fleck. Think !
No, Kevin. What is really funny (...and sad, simultaneously) is when a guy who declares publicly being a fan of Hogan tries in EACH POST concerning Hogan discredit him and find holes in his game. Find me at least one post where you "defend" Hogan here. Please.
Cheers
Darius...the difference between being a fan and a zealot is the ability to admit that the people/things/ideas you admire are not perfect. They have weaknesses. I"ve never seen you write anything on any forum anywhere that wasn't dismissive of every golfer in history other than Hogan, so what's the point of talking to you?
And another thing, Hogan was a bad dresser. He was always neat and tidy, but his color palette was drab, repetitive, and unimaginative. What say you.
And another thing, Hogan was a bad dresser. He was always neat and tidy, but his color palette was drab, repetitive, and unimaginative. What say you.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I'm just trying to be objective. The thing is, I've never really been that big of a fan of Nicklaus. I have 5 or6 books on Hogan and one about Nicklaus. I'm just able to look at things for what they are and not find ways to fit an agenda. I honestly didn't realize there were rules I had to follow to be a fan of Hogan. Like I said, it's just plain strange that you call my lack of loyalty to Hogan "sad". Creepy.
Dariusz J.
New member
Obviously you neither you read my posts carefully nor visited all fora, including the most important (at least for me) - my own one. I said many times on many places that there are things that Hogan was wrong about. I said many times everywhere that Hogan is not the best golfer ever. I argued that he was the best ballstriker since there are many proofs to support the thesis, but it did not stop me to admit (upon a good number of arguments) that Nicklaus could be equally good in this art. I never argued stupid things, like Hogan was the best Masters player or longest hitter. I argued that he (alongside with Moe) was the most accurate one since there are many proofs to support the thesis.
Now I argue that Hogan was the best US Open player ever since there are many proofs to support the thesis.
What is of zealot here ? It is easy to throw accusations, much harder to apologize for them.
I do not care about it at all. I am a golf swing theorist not Karl Lagerfeld.
Actually, you may have an agenda which is sad. To diminish Hogan's achievements. Again, find me at least one post of yours when you "defend" Hogan.
Cheers
I think biomechanically Nicklaus is better than Hogan.
Nicklaus didn't practice like Hogan as he was a family man and spent time with his kids.Hogan had no children to distract him.If Nicklaus spent the same amount of hours on the range as Hogan he would've been just as consistent only longer.
p.s this post is not meant to pick on dariusz but if it appears like it does,cest la vie.
Nicklaus didn't practice like Hogan as he was a family man and spent time with his kids.Hogan had no children to distract him.If Nicklaus spent the same amount of hours on the range as Hogan he would've been just as consistent only longer.
p.s this post is not meant to pick on dariusz but if it appears like it does,cest la vie.
LOL. Can you imagine Hogan in pink J.Lindeberg attire? ROFL
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Here is the deal.
Hogan didn't want ANYTHING to detract the fans from pulling for him.
It was a theory of his, and he didn't do bad.
BTW, he was a superb dresser.
Hogan didn't want ANYTHING to detract the fans from pulling for him.
It was a theory of his, and he didn't do bad.
BTW, he was a superb dresser.
I should have put a smiley face on my dressing comment to clarify the intent....just tweaking the Hogan extremists a little bit.
As great a player as Hogan was, his fans go off the deep end sometimes...refusing to admit that he's not the best ever in every way for all eternity. Kevin makes a reasonable argument that the guy with the most wins, most seconds, most top 5s, most top 10s just might be the best of all time, and he gets treated like he just said the earth is flat.
As great a player as Hogan was, his fans go off the deep end sometimes...refusing to admit that he's not the best ever in every way for all eternity. Kevin makes a reasonable argument that the guy with the most wins, most seconds, most top 5s, most top 10s just might be the best of all time, and he gets treated like he just said the earth is flat.
mjstrong
New
Unfortunately, the Best Ball Striker debate will never be settled without more detailed statistics (Fwy, GIR, fairway width, rough height, etc.), which are just not available for those historic tournaments. Comparing one generation to another is nearly impossible given all the considerations.
I'd offer up that we have probably never heard of the best ball striker everl; there are probably a bunch of guys who can't putt, fold under any kind of tournament pressure, and maybe don't have the motivation to pursue tournament golf, but could light up a Trackman at a driving range like a Christmas tree.
On the thread's topic, it looks like Hogan dominated for a shorter period of time, but you have to give Nicklaus some consideration as the most dominating US Open player; longevity has to count for something, no?
I'd offer up that we have probably never heard of the best ball striker everl; there are probably a bunch of guys who can't putt, fold under any kind of tournament pressure, and maybe don't have the motivation to pursue tournament golf, but could light up a Trackman at a driving range like a Christmas tree.
On the thread's topic, it looks like Hogan dominated for a shorter period of time, but you have to give Nicklaus some consideration as the most dominating US Open player; longevity has to count for something, no?
Dariusz J.
New member
Oh really, extremists ? Where are these extremists ? Where are my apologies, pal ? Did you read CAREFULLY what I said in my last post ? I guess you and similar-to-you have only courage to accuse and laugh at others but when it comes to apologies, they either disappear or make generalizations. Sad times, really.
Cheers
C'mon EJ. your just theorizing...lol. Quit picking on Dariusz, your not a true Hogan fan and Dariusz will recind your membership in the fan club if you keep this up....ROFLMAO.
magicmarker
New
Nicklaus wouldn't go there. He thought too much practice made his swing stale.
You can have Hogan, his immaculate biomachinery, and his ball-striking prowess.
When the weekend comes, I like Nicklaus' nerves with putter much more...
You can have Hogan, his immaculate biomachinery, and his ball-striking prowess.
When the weekend comes, I like Nicklaus' nerves with putter much more...
Like Dariusz is not theorizing either.lol.His biokinetic theory relies on the fact that Hogan was a good a ballstriker as he was due only to his biomechanics and not other factors like talent and a single minded practice dedication to the swing that is second to none other than perhaps Moe.This would validate his theory which is "90% Hogan" but not based on Hogan.Yes,conveniently 10% is not Hogan so that he gets some credit also.lol
The fact is deep hands,flat and around the body swings like Hogan has it's biomechanic drawbacks as well as advantages.This type of swing requires a greater range of rotation of the forearms(in particular during the release) compared to upright swings.This complicates the timing,not simplifies it.
Nicklaus knew this.You think he never experimented with a flatter swing?He did say upright swings required less forarm rotation.I ain't making this up just to piss off dariusz.
I think you are making it all up. Nicklaus couldn't swing like Hogan because Hogan had the almost perfect swing and all Nicklaus could do is win with his inferior motion...lol. Hogan didn't have a flat swing it just wasn't as upright.
And remember Crenshaw with two balls in the water on the back nine after tying for the lead. Also that year was when everybody hung the choke label on Tom Watson. After starting with 67,68 he went 77,78 on the weekend. I was there. Lou Graham gets on everybody's unlikeliest of Open winners list for sure!
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