How Do You Teach or Learn Axis Tilt?

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psomers

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Being 69 years old is this a move you would try to get me to perform? Sounds good if I were in my 30s are maybe 40s but this old body has a hard time tilting left and having an open chest. I am not over weighr and pretty atheletic. What is taught to older golfers with less flexability? I have all Brian's DVDs except never hook witch I don't do.
Paul
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
psomers said:
Being 69 years old is this a move you would try to get me to perform? Sounds good if I were in my 30s are maybe 40s but this old body has a hard time tilting left and having an open chest. I am not over weighr and pretty atheletic. What is taught to older golfers with less flexibility?
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My Dad used to ask this question all the time:

"Hey Boogs, why do I always hit my best iron shots on #6 on the West Course from behind the big oak."

I used to tell him that trying to hit a high shot made him stretch his left side better."

My Dad passed away in January of 1987.

I went to see Ben Doyle in June of 1987.

The answer is AXIS TILT.

I remember telling a golfing pal about my "new swing" when I came back from seeing Ben that first time.

"It feels like I am trying to hit a low shot with my hands, and a high shot with my body."

So, how would I tell a 69 yr old man how to "Tilt his teacup"?

"Belt buckle to the target, weight to the left heel, and start the ball HIGHER."
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
As you told me, "you're always trying to fade it with your body and hook it with your hands" or something to that effect. I love it. Use it all the time.
 
Steve Greffen

Steve Greffen

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psomers said:
Being 69 years old is this a move you would try to get me to perform? Sounds good if I were in my 30s are maybe 40s but this old body has a hard time tilting left and having an open chest. I am not over weighr and pretty atheletic. What is taught to older golfers with less flexability? I have all Brian's DVDs except never hook witch I don't do.
Paul
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Paul,
Thanks for asking what I had wanted to inquire about. I have many students that are probably similar to you and maybe even not as good as shape. I would love to hear how others approach those that do not have this flexibility.

My take would be that A. Keep your head behind the ball up to impact and just past impact B. Get your hands more forward into impact C. Get your weight to the left side in your downswing

Now part of the reason that I think that older less flexible players have a hard time with this is that they have the club face open just before impact and use their hands arms to close the face at the last minute. (leading to a body position at impact that looks a lot like their address position...no axis tilt) I gave a tip to a student (70 years old) in the shop the other day whose swing I had recorded previously who did just this, was on plane and pivoted ok (overweight and unflexible though) and we worked on hooking my finger on his sweet spot in the shop by getting his left wrist and forearm to rotate and twist down and away. He went and hit a couple balls and came back with very favorable reviews. I don't know if he had more axis tilt or not, but I would think this would be more possible with the change in his hands and arms at impact though, (with a limit to the extent he will be able to do it physically but still do it to some scale.)

I am really looking forward to the spring and being able to take on this problem more. Any other ideas for seniors or less flexible players?
 
Steve Greffen

Steve Greffen

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tourdeep said:
why not? more pressure on the back?
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Well for one thing getting them to bend over (a senior or less flexible person) is next to impossible, they can't do it and then if they did they couldn't get any of the tilt we are looking for. They would be even more inflexible in that state.
 
Steve Greffen

Steve Greffen

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"It feels like I am trying to hit a low shot with my hands, and a high shot with my body."

So, how would I tell a 69 yr old man how to "Tilt his teacup"?

"Belt buckle to the target, weight to the left heel, and start the ball HIGHER."
Click to expand...

Brian,

I like this idea especially with hitting the ball low with the hands. I could see many players, however, (seniors especially) that would bottom out the club way behind the ball if they tried to hit it higher with their body. (kind of lean back with the body and then they would throw away their hands at the ball) How would you try to coordinate the two so that the golfer can get his hands forward (to hit it low) but get his body to hit it high? Any drills or feels to accomplish this? And any drills if this player is an older player, or maybe a weaker player, like a lady? I have so many here that want that little extra distance, and I know in concept what to change but run into some obstacles with some seniors.

Thanks for any input.
 
tourdeep

tourdeep

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Bolt said:
Well for one thing getting them to bend over (a senior or less flexible person) is next to impossible, they can't do it and then if they did they couldn't get any of the tilt we are looking for. They would be even more inflexible in that state.
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less tilt required when bending over...

tilt can cause much problems for the seniors, especially if they are that inflexible, but i will leave that to the specialists...

How about this...

instead of tilt or bending over, how about aiming more right and play a pull?
 
W

Wallop

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I like the idea of hitting it high with the upper body. I've always had a low trajectory with my irons until last year. Our course put up a 35 foot high net to protect the practice area from the range. One day I'm in the practice area behind the net and I try to hit a seven iron over the net back into the range. First few into the top of the net, then I move the ball up open the face and really try to stay behind the ball...Presto Chango..big high 5 yd fades and I can really feel my left side stretching out. I think it must look weird, but my buddy says it looks like I'm staying down through the shot. I used that net drill as my pre-round practice and started hitting a lot more greens. Funny what works in this game.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Yeahyarite!

Bolt said:
Well for one thing getting them to bend over (a senior or less flexible person) is next to impossible, they can't do it and then if they did they couldn't get any of the tilt we are looking for. They would be even more inflexible in that state.
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Go directly to the HEAD OF THE CLASS Mr. Bolt!

The very reason some otherwise less than ideal patterns work at all for the hacker/slicer is because bending too far over stifles there through-the-ball pivot, and they can flip it squarer.

And that's a fact, Jack.
 
Steve Greffen

Steve Greffen

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Brian Manzella said:
Go directly to the HEAD OF THE CLASS Mr. Bolt!

The very reason some otherwise less than ideal patterns work at all for the hacker/slicer is because bending too far over stifles there through-the-ball pivot, and they can flip it squarer.

And that's a fact, Jack.
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Brian,

I am glad that I am on the right track. Totally makes sense on the bent over position stifling the through-the-ball pivot. So back to that original question.

How can we get those seniors to have moderate axis tilt and forward hands and on plane swing with a square clubface?

I seem to see that the players that stand up more to the ball have really upright planes and their clubfaces stay open more. My approach will be to focus on the face, squaring the face without the flipping hand action or scoop action and then getting them to pivot through the ball. With forward hands they will have some amount of axis tilt.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
:)

As much as I try to explain thing with words on this site, the fact of the matter is I use my HANDS for "manual manipulation" to get a lot of my teaching done.

This is one of those times.
 
L

leon

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Brian Manzella said:
The very reason some otherwise less than ideal patterns work at all for the hacker/slicer is because bending too far over stifles there through-the-ball pivot, and they can flip it squarer.

And that's a fact, Jack.
Click to expand...

Just stumbled across this and it piqued my interest. I know Brian advocates bending over like a real golfer, so I'm wondering, how bent is too bent?
 
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carland

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I have NSA 2.0 and (try to) use that pattern for my swing. It's helped get rid of my block and block slice when done correctly. Just curious. Are the twistaway and axis tilt (taught as dropping the right shoulder down the plane and the left shoulder up the plane on the downswing) two of the "magic moves" in Joe Dante's book "The Four Magic Moves"?
 
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carland

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dbl said:
Perhaps so. One is similar to twistaway, and I believe one is starting the downswing by shifting the hips.

More info to peruse at Google Books
Four Magic Moves to Winning Golf - Google Books

Note many unscrupulous ebook sellers have put some or ALL of the book online, but these days the main offender's site has taken it down.
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Thanks. I have Dante's book. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't some big difference between those two ideas from NSA and what seemed similar to me from Dante's book. I think NSA does a better job of explaining the twistaway, especially getting the whole club to face away from the target on the backswing and putting the club "on the box" after impact, and how to get axis tilt. Just thinking of sliding my hips left while keeping the head still (what Dante describes) doesn't work well for me.
 
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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
carland said:
I have NSA 2.0 and (try to) use that pattern for my swing. It's helped get rid of my block and block slice when done correctly. Just curious. Are the twistaway and axis tilt (taught as dropping the right shoulder down the plane and the left shoulder up the plane on the downswing) two of the "magic moves" in Joe Dante's book "The Four Magic Moves"?
Click to expand...

If not they should be, both seem to be "magical" when i get students to perform them right (including my own shots :) )
 
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