How does the clubface square?
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Richie3Jack
New
I think it should 'just happen.' One can do either. I've seen golfers who actively think about rolling the face to square on the backswing. And of course, when I use the downswing twistaway, I guess one could say that is an effort to square the clubface or get the clubface in a position I want it to be in.
But most golfers who consciously think about it I believe get themselves into big trouble. I was at the range yesterday and one of the guys I play with showed up and came to me and say he was struggling big time. And he was, thinning almost everything with the irons and topping his driver. And this guy plays usually to about a 7 handicap. When he would hit one solid, he would hit a big fade (he usually hits a big draw with power).
I noticed on his takeaway that he would look back at the club and then when he would take it further back he would then look back at the ball. I asked him why he was doing it and he said in his last lesson his instructor said his clubface should be in a certain position in the takeaway and he was essentially monitoring it. It reminded me of Fernando Valenzuela's method of throwing a pitch where he would look up towards the sky during his motion.
Anyway, I got him out of doing that and he immediately started playing better. And then we played this morning and I quietly counted the times he 'did the Fernando' vs. when he kept his eyes looking at the ball and his quality of shots between the two were so different it was pretty much night and day.
When you start trying to shape the face, I believe that's when you start getting more into 'position golf' which really doesn't work from my experience. And today was a great example for me.
3JACK
But most golfers who consciously think about it I believe get themselves into big trouble. I was at the range yesterday and one of the guys I play with showed up and came to me and say he was struggling big time. And he was, thinning almost everything with the irons and topping his driver. And this guy plays usually to about a 7 handicap. When he would hit one solid, he would hit a big fade (he usually hits a big draw with power).
I noticed on his takeaway that he would look back at the club and then when he would take it further back he would then look back at the ball. I asked him why he was doing it and he said in his last lesson his instructor said his clubface should be in a certain position in the takeaway and he was essentially monitoring it. It reminded me of Fernando Valenzuela's method of throwing a pitch where he would look up towards the sky during his motion.
Anyway, I got him out of doing that and he immediately started playing better. And then we played this morning and I quietly counted the times he 'did the Fernando' vs. when he kept his eyes looking at the ball and his quality of shots between the two were so different it was pretty much night and day.
When you start trying to shape the face, I believe that's when you start getting more into 'position golf' which really doesn't work from my experience. And today was a great example for me.
3JACK
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
If you are on plane and don't have a too open clubface, it should just happen and you'll feel it happen.
HOWEVER
Golf isn't that easy and as richie noted you have to at times; train yourself to learn the feel via the twistaway or sometimes i tell students to turn their knuckles down around impact to get rid of the flip.
HOWEVER
Golf isn't that easy and as richie noted you have to at times; train yourself to learn the feel via the twistaway or sometimes i tell students to turn their knuckles down around impact to get rid of the flip.
ggsjpc
New
ok, so are you saying, that a player must learn how to square the face consciously first, then it will just happen later?
So true. My dad always used the term "palm up" when he had students who werent hitting it to right field.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
In a lot of cases, yes.
2mongoose
New
Hmmm....
ggsjpc,
You're being a little coy here......like you have an "answer" but are just teasing us
Anyway, IMO, when people are playing well there are no swing thoughts. Visualization and feel become their guide. So in short it just "happens."
On the other hand, feel fades quickly and we must build the fundamentals of our movements through mechanics. A little knowledge can go a long way.
For example, let's take someone w/ the shanks. Give them some Manzella-lag-the-sweetspot-not-the-hosel pie and viola, they feel what it's like to turn that clubface off the plane.
So it takes a little knowledge and a lot of practice to let those repetitions turn to feel. When it goes south, start at square one again.
ggsjpc,
You're being a little coy here......like you have an "answer" but are just teasing us
Anyway, IMO, when people are playing well there are no swing thoughts. Visualization and feel become their guide. So in short it just "happens."
On the other hand, feel fades quickly and we must build the fundamentals of our movements through mechanics. A little knowledge can go a long way.
For example, let's take someone w/ the shanks. Give them some Manzella-lag-the-sweetspot-not-the-hosel pie and viola, they feel what it's like to turn that clubface off the plane.
So it takes a little knowledge and a lot of practice to let those repetitions turn to feel. When it goes south, start at square one again.
jenhaoyen
New
i agree. You can't just think and the swing happens. You gotta have some kind of swing thought. I'm sure everybody does it, for different shape of shots.
Burner
New
From mechanics you learn feel.
From feel you learn touch.
From touch you learn control.
Once you have control you will be in the money.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Generally if you have a lot of probems squaring the face at impact and you aren't say a big open face slicer, in my experience you are laid off somewhere in the downswing and just aren't "laid off enough" to shank it.
Most people who get in this position wouldn't be too bad if they just swung out to the right that far and played a big draw but there are others who don't know how open they are and are tring to swing more left and disaster happens.
Most people who get in this position wouldn't be too bad if they just swung out to the right that far and played a big draw but there are others who don't know how open they are and are tring to swing more left and disaster happens.
Richie3Jack
New
I think there may need to be a differentation between a swing feel and a swing thought. I use a lot of feel and it's almost primarily from the right hand up to the right elbow.
I will think about how I want to feel like I'm keeping the right forearm on plane and that I'm using the right forearm takeaway and then the max pressure in my #1 PP is at impact. I do that with a simple waggle or two and then I'm set to go. But like I was saying about my friend that came to me, he had more of a swing thought where he wanted his hands to be in a certain position in the takeaway and wound up consciously doing so by looking back and 'doing the Fernando' and that was counterproductive IMO.
3JACK
I will think about how I want to feel like I'm keeping the right forearm on plane and that I'm using the right forearm takeaway and then the max pressure in my #1 PP is at impact. I do that with a simple waggle or two and then I'm set to go. But like I was saying about my friend that came to me, he had more of a swing thought where he wanted his hands to be in a certain position in the takeaway and wound up consciously doing so by looking back and 'doing the Fernando' and that was counterproductive IMO.
3JACK
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
assuming a good grip, anytime the hands move out is the destroyer of clubface control
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
i believe he is talking about pop out.
popout...got it!
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Not just popout, any time the hands move out.
2mongoose
New
What's your "stock" pattern? How would you describe the relationship of the clubface to the target line in this pattern (ideally anyway)?
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