I Learned The Hard Way..........

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tallathlete

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I learned that not all websites are concerned with truth and free speech. I learned that if you go onto Golfwrx.com, and you point out with factual evidence that Butch Harmon, Hank Haney, Jim Flick, Jim Suttie, et al have no clue what they are talking about.....and that Golf Digest is also a joke....I learned you will be banned. At least here the truth can be freely spoken.
 
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jpeck

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tallathlete said:
I learned that not all websites are concerned with truth and free speech. I learned that if you go onto Golfwrx.com, and you point out with factual evidence that Butch Harmon, Hank Haney, Jim Flick, Jim Suttie, et al have no clue what they are talking about.....and that Golf Digest is also a joke....I learned you will be banned. At least here the truth can be freely spoken.
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Could you explain how Butch Harmon has no clue what he is talking about? Butch has an understanding of the swing which has seen him successfully teach players at the highest level in the game. Considering the dangers involved, I consider it no easy feat to navigate these treacherous waters.
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I would like to also see the factual evidence. I saw your post about stack and tilt on golfwrx so obviously your a big fan. Please tell us the evidence that they are right and Butch, et al, are all clueless. Not stirring it up, only interested.
 
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tallathlete

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Guys....I am not going to get this started again. No matter what proof I show people are going to exalt Harmon. They bring up he is the so called #1 ranked teacher....the fact that he has taught the top players in the game, etc. They seem to forget to mention that today....in 2010....the Butch Harmon School of Golf still teaches the path determines the starting line of a golf ball....and the ball curves toward the face. I know this is taught there for a fact. In my opinion, when you do not even understand ball flight 101....the absolute basics....how on earth can you be the worlds best??? How? Further, when people say he taught Woods which means he must be the best....I counter with what does it say that the worlds best left Harmon??? When they mention he teaches Mickelson, I counter with Phil is an awful driver of the golf ball and oftentimes has no clue where it is going. Has Butch done one single concrete thing for Phil's accuracy or precision off the tee??? No.
 
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tallathlete

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Kevin, the factual evidence is quotes from Harmon's books that are absolutely patently wrong. The proof are multiple videos from Golf Channel where his advice is either wrong or horribly flawed. Lastly, the proof is a statement from his head instructor stating the position of the Harmon school is path determines starting line. I happen to know a Harmon student personally and he confirmed that Harmon and his band of gypsies teach path. I shall leave it at that............
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
OK, cool. I never read them so I have no idea what he knows or doesnt know. I wouldnt send my wife to him for a beginner lesson. I was just wondering what the evidence was.
 
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duckslice

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I'm not defending Butch, or refuting your evidence. But, I'd be willing to bet that Butch Harmon understands the "new" ball flight laws and the "D"plane.
 
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Jared Willerson

Super Moderator
Duckslice....I really believe you would surprised at what the top 50 doesn't know...because they don't have to...the golf establishment will continue to exalt them until teachers that know the truth start churning out players that beat the students of the top 50 mafia.
 
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tallathlete

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Ask me if I would rather have a lesson from Golf Digests #1 ranked teacher in the world.....or a lesson from Manzella or his staff. Id be on my way to the swamps of Louisiana......
 
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David Madras

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I would say the ball starts in a 80 to 85% range of where the face is pointing when the ball leaves it....So I would say mostly face related. Path would have more affect on spin.

With that being said, I have seen a TON of guys who have loads of great information...who can't teach a lick! Even if I am 100% wrong on my thought, having the correct knowledge would make me MORE knowledgeable...not nesicarilly a better teacher. Dont get me wrong...facts are important. But so is teaching itself.

I myself am not a huge Butch fan from what I know, but I have never seen him teach up close. So really i have no fact of what he does really. I do know, I cannot accuartely predict what he teaches based on what I read in a magazine...I would have to see it for myself. I have been on the practice tee with him at a tour event...but he wasnt teaching. Just leaning on a club. But again...not sure what he was doing or saying.

Anyway, like I said...I 100% agree you need to have the facts, but you need to be a great teacher as well.
 
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btp

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I would call Butch a results teacher. Whether he or anyone knows D-Plane doesn't matter much to me if they can develop players. From a golfer who can't break wind, to someone on the PGA Tour, results are how you should be judged. Everytime I see, D-Plane, it reminds me of the little guy from Fantasy Island. D-Plane, D-Plane, D-Plane

Butch may not have improved Mickelsons swing, but he also didn't screw it up.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
tbarbertab said:
I believe you have said 70% face, 30% path.
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That's a general guide...

It is closer to 85% face with a small cut angle, like for example a 10° cut angle with a driver, which would be the case with a 13° delivered loft, and a 3° upward attack angle; or closer to 60-65% face with large cut angle like a lob wedge with layback.

The S&Ters always say is starts on the face, "Charlie," but it does NOT!
 
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tallathlete

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Brian Manzella said:
That's a general guide...

It is closer to 85% face with a small cut angle, like for example a 10° cut angle with a driver, which would be the case with a 13° delivered loft, and a 3° upward attack angle; or closer to 60-65% face with large cut angle like a lob wedge with layback.

The S&Ters always say is starts on the face, "Charlie," but it does NOT!
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Bmanz....you and I have spoken on the phone a few times so you know that I also know exactly where the ball starts. When Mike and Andy made the dvd's and said the ball starts on the face...I think they said that for simplicity and to make things as uncomplicated as possible. I believe that if you are talking to John Q. everyday golfer...and you tell him the ball starts appx. 87% of where the face is aiming...I believe you will lose him. Sure there are some guys that will understand those numbers, but the masses wont get it in my opinion. I know for a fact that Andy knows exactly precisely where the ball starts as you do....but tried to keep it simple for the masses.
 
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tallathlete

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Tell you what....I will post some photos from the book of the #15 ranked teacher in the world. You absolutely will not believe what this guy said. It is astonishing. I will have them up in a few............
 
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tallathlete

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Here are the photos. As i said he is ranked #15 in the world per Golf Digest. He was the 2000 PGA National Teacher of the Year. He is a doctor. Lastly...he said that a draw has topspin....yes....topspin. Take a look and enjoy..........



[media]http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q161/TallPokerPro/IMAG0090.jpg[/media]

[media]http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q161/TallPokerPro/IMAG0092.jpg[/media]

[media]http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q161/TallPokerPro/IMAG0093.jpg[/media]

Now Brian.....be honest. The fact that he said a draw has TOPSPIN and will hit the green with FORWARD spin....is that the most preposterous thing you have ever heard in golf instruction in your entire career???
 
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