I Learned The Hard Way..........

[softconsult]

Most people do not like change. Most people do not like being told that
they are wrong. Some teachers may actually know the new flight laws,
but rather that admit it they just blow off someone like Richie to get
out of the situation. Other teachers may simply be doing a back of the
envelop calculation of the time, energy, and money involved with perhaps
changing their teaching method because of this uncomfortable new information.

Simple really.

 

[greenfree]

I think you are drinking a little too much kool aid around here. While there certainly is some terrible teachers in that list of 100 teachers there are many many great teachers.

While I don't agree with much Jimmy Ballard has to say to think he is not a top 100 teacher would be dishonest.

Then don't think it and you won't be dishonest to yourself.

 

[savydan]

Most people do not like change. Most people do not like being told that
they are wrong. Some teachers may actually know the new flight laws,
but rather that admit it they just blow off someone like Richie to get
out of the situation. Other teachers may simply be doing a back of the
envelop calculation of the time, energy, and money involved with perhaps
changing their teaching method because of this uncomfortable new information.

Simple really.

Exactly. The question is how do they think they can get out of it?

Possibilities:

1. They are approaching retirement and would rather ride out their remaining days sticking to their theories rathing than changing them too close to retirement. If it blows up after they're retired they will take a little hit to their legacy, not not to their pocket book now.

2. The "correct/new" laws are just more psuedo-science that they have seen come and go and think they can weasle out of the "new" laws. They don't quite understand psuedo-science from real science and just don't appreciate how real science can quickly blow up the BS if it wants to.

 

[Michael Finney]

wow, a lot of chatter......

butch harmon was making fun of bruce willis' post impact clubface during a pga teaching summit years ago....he said "how in the hell do you get the clubface that closed after impact, bruce?" as he talked to the jumbo screen.....

he was being serious

he did not know

that is only one small example of what the big named guys don't have right in their head.....a lot of them do it with smoke and mirrors - some do it with hard work, research, and talent...

the guys who show up in phoenix will fall in the latter category..

bruce willis had hit the ball in the heel and the club had closed violently....but butch didn't know

 

[cmow]

I have no dog in this fight, just passing along some info from personal experience....

I went to the #15 rated instructor in question for a lesson about 7 years ago. My tendency is to be an inside-out underplane hooker/pusher, and he gave me a lesson that is pretty much the same as what is in the NHA video. The up-the-wall, yellow brick road, towel plane board concepts were all the main focus of the lesson, just expressed in different terms. (So, if you fit that description, you can save yourself a few hundred bucks and buy Brian's video instead. )

3JACK may find this interesting - one of the comments he made was "those clubs are a terrible fit for you" - they were the typical 1" long, 2 deg. upright that I was "fit" to. He thought I should be flatter...

I was a satisfied customer - definitely gave me some new knowledge. I may not have implemented the knowledge perfectly, but that is my responsibility. Also, IMHO, he was a down to earth good guy, don't think he was there with anything but good intentions.

 

[softconsult]

1. They are approaching retirement and would rather ride out their remaining days sticking to their theories rathing than changing them too close to retirement. If it blows up after they're retired they will take a little hit to their legacy, not not to their pocket book now.

The flaw in that argument is that you are presuming that it will blow up. Maybe not. Start with the assumption that most people who take golf lessons will not drive farther than, what 25 miles from home to take lessons. It could be more close in than that. If they knew about Ball Flight Laws, and knew that none of the X instructors
in their zone taught this correctly, then they are essentially stuck. Furthermore, how would they ever find out
which instructor was current technically? Unlikely that they will expend the effort to try and find out.


Then we have to make some guess as to their technical knowledge of ball flight laws. My bet is that 5 years from now that knowledge will not be present in most students. So who is going to
inform them? Not the coasting instructor. So change will happen very, very slowly.

Luckily, this is only golf. Think your Doctor is necessarily up to speed on the latest info? Maybe not. Pick any field and I suspect the same thing is true. If it ain't broke, don't fix it is a strong tendency.

 

[savydan]

I am assuming it will blow up; it's just a matter of time. I think the older, top 100 who own TM's but don't believe it, are hoping they are retired before the masses understand the correct laws. They made a calculated marketing decision to BS on this subject.

I wonder if the top 100 assistant pros know the deal, play around on Trackman when the boss isn't looking, but are forced to take the company line to save the boss's ass for now.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Most people do not like change. Most people do not like being told that
they are wrong. Some teachers may actually know the new flight laws,
but rather that admit it they just blow off someone like Richie to get
out of the situation. Other teachers may simply be doing a back of the
envelop calculation of the time, energy, and money involved with perhaps
changing their teaching method because of this uncomfortable new information.

Simple really.

What I usually find is that those who know the ball flight laws tend to:

1) Act like they always knew them, so they act like they were never wrong.

or

2) Memorize the basics, but everything they teach is the opposite of what we know about the laws of ball flight.

And usually the instructors that fall in #1 do wind up teaching like the instructors that fall in #2 (that's why it's easy to spot that they didn't always know D-Plane).







3JACK

 

[Richie3Jack]

I am assuming it will blow up; it's just a matter of time. I think the older, top 100 who own TM's but don't believe it, are hoping they are retired before the masses understand the correct laws. They made a calculated marketing decision to BS on this subject.

I wonder if the top 100 assistant pros know the deal, play around on Trackman when the boss isn't looking, but are forced to take the company line to save the boss's ass for now.

Most top assistant and disciples just believe wholeheartedly as to what their mentor tells them. He's the boss and can provide them with contacts and references that can give them a lucrative teaching career. I've met plenty of disciples that are nothing more than obsequious lapdogs that couldn't teach their way out of a wet paper bag and have made a nice living doing so because they are associate with some big name instructor. Most of them are them are not willing to even think the slightest bit differently than the boss.

I hate to sound overly negative about it, but I think too many of us have this ideal that golf instruction is a place filled with progressive and enlightened individuals. I meet a lot more stubborn and dopey instructors than I meet open minded instructors. Of course, money plays a lot into this.



3JACK

 

[johnnymac2201]

I think in the case of Butch Harmon, we have to remember he learned not from a "mentor", but from his father, Claude Harmon, a Masters champion, and one of the most respected teachers of his era. Now he's got some guys from Scandinavia with this new-fangled machine telling him the world isn't flat, it's round. Easy to see how someone in his position isn't going to jump on the bandwagon right away, even with the mountain of evidence available.

He might eventually come around, but even if he doesn't, I'm pretty sure he could fix your slice, and still might produce another couple of major champions, even with faulty information, and earn another couple mil while doing it.

John

 

[greenfree]

It really doesn't matter if Butch or any of the "Top" instructors come around, it would be nice if they did, but eventually the science will come out and you either embrace it or get left in the dust. It's always been that way, new discoveries and technologies will prevail, regardless if some don't acknowledge them.

 

[Deadly_Scope]

It really doesn't matter if Butch or any of the "Top" instructors come around, it would be nice if they did, but eventually the science will come out and you either embrace it or get left in the dust. It's always been that way, new discoveries and technologies will prevail, regardless if some don't acknowledge them.

I agree that things do generally progress and I might add that it's even deeper than that. Every generation builds on the foundation of knowledge of the past. The problem is that since this game has been on the planet that (if you imagine a golfer representing human evolution on the game, this player isn't getting any better just like) the understanding isn't getting any better.

Generally speaking, the more that the human brain knows, the more that the human brain gets confused to the point where it is incapacitating. The issue is not this idea is where you push more and more superfluous facts into the brain so that eventually they get a general feeling of what the golf stroke is mean't to be, the issue is condensing the golf stroke knowledge to its simplest form yet no simpler so understanding is as easy as possible.

Now herein lies the problem. Imagine a road and there is a fork in the road, if you have the worst teachers dictating where they are going to go, when the new teachers come they will keep going in the same direction because they don't know that they can go back. The roads will all lead to the same destination - some longer than others.

 

[birly-shirly]

I have no dog in this fight, just passing along some info from personal experience....

I went to the #15 rated instructor in question for a lesson about 7 years ago. My tendency is to be an inside-out underplane hooker/pusher, and he gave me a lesson that is pretty much the same as what is in the NHA video. The up-the-wall, yellow brick road, towel plane board concepts were all the main focus of the lesson, just expressed in different terms. (So, if you fit that description, you can save yourself a few hundred bucks and buy Brian's video instead. )

3JACK may find this interesting - one of the comments he made was "those clubs are a terrible fit for you" - they were the typical 1" long, 2 deg. upright that I was "fit" to. He thought I should be flatter...

I was a satisfied customer - definitely gave me some new knowledge. I may not have implemented the knowledge perfectly, but that is my responsibility. Also, IMHO, he was a down to earth good guy, don't think he was there with anything but good intentions.

Err, nobody else thought this was interesting or worthy of comment? A "Name Instructor" in Knowing-His-Stuff shocker? That should be news, no?

I'd at least be interested to know how he diagnosed the problem in the first place? Ballflight, divots, eyeball? I don't know, but the answers might give a better clue as to why some of these Names don't make a bigger deal out of the technology available. Better than conspiracy theories that is.

I've heard that Bob Torrance isn't much of a fan of using video. Does that make him a Luddite, a fraud, or just someone who has his own way of working that he believes is still valid?

 

[greenfree]

I agree that things do generally progress and I might add that it's even deeper than that. Every generation builds on the foundation of knowledge of the past. The problem is that since this game has been on the planet that (if you imagine a golfer representing human evolution on the game, this player isn't getting any better just like) the understanding isn't getting any better.

Generally speaking, the more that the human brain knows, the more that the human brain gets confused to the point where it is incapacitating. The issue is not this idea is where you push more and more superfluous facts into the brain so that eventually they get a general feeling of what the golf stroke is mean't to be, the issue is condensing the golf stroke knowledge to its simplest form yet no simpler so understanding is as easy as possible.

Now herein lies the problem. Imagine a road and there is a fork in the road, if you have the worst teachers dictating where they are going to go, when the new teachers come they will keep going in the same direction because they don't know that they can go back. The roads will all lead to the same destination - some longer than others.

I get what your saying, that's why i said eventually and who knows how long it will take for a few of those teachers to go back to the other road in the fork, but it will happen for the knowledge/science part, now for the application/playing part that's a whole different ball game.

 

[greenfree]

Err, nobody else thought this was interesting or worthy of comment? A "Name Instructor" in Knowing-His-Stuff shocker? That should be news, no?

I'd at least be interested to know how he diagnosed the problem in the first place? Ballflight, divots, eyeball? I don't know, but the answers might give a better clue as to why some of these Names don't make a bigger deal out of the technology available. Better than conspiracy theories that is.

I've heard that Bob Torrance isn't much of a fan of using video. Does that make him a Luddite, a fraud, or just someone who has his own way of working that he believes is still valid?

That reminds me of a guy i know whose swing looked great and he had taken lessons from the best teachers around, even Leadbetter, (if you consider Lead a good teacher) anyways we were hitting on the range and his strikes were solid and it looked really good.

Then i made him a bet that he couldn't hit a certain target only about 150 yards away, well i stood there for an hour and he couldn't do it. I did it in 1 swing and have never have taken a lesson in my life, now my swing doesn't look as good as his but i know something he doesn't.

 

[faux_maestro]

Handicap average hasnt gone down forever. Mass instruction goes out the way to be as simple as possible. How has that worked out? Telling your friend he's throwing the left arm lever is telling, not teaching.

"If you cant explain it in childlike terms, you dont know it yourself" - Villavaso

I had a music education prof. in my undergrad that used to say "TELLING AIN'T TEACHING". There is a subtle difference