I want an answer to this question......

Status
Not open for further replies.

Dariusz J.

New member
Every single time that real scientists have modeled a golf swing, in 2D or 3D, and a possible parameter was moving the center, whether to optimize for power or a flat spot, or anything worthwhile, the center moves. Every time.........so why all the fascination with a non-moving center??

Although I have any pleasure no more to post on your site because of some arrogant and stupid environment I've encountered here I still support and am curious how your marriage with REAL science developes. Anatomy is a science, too. Lack of knowing the reality of human anatomy is the answer to your question, first of all. That's why the golf instruction sucked and still continues to suck. If you neglect anatomy you'll suck as well.

Cheers
 
Every single time that real scientists have modeled a golf swing, in 2D or 3D, and a possible parameter was moving the center, whether to optimize for power or a flat spot, or anything worthwhile, the center moves. Every time.........so why all the fascination with a non-moving center??

Brian, you must know the answer to this question. You were once a believer in the Cult. You believed what was written in the Cult Book. And the Cult Book was the basis for all those who subsequently started their own Sub-Cults.

The cult phenomenon has existed in human society since the beginning of time. We are all "born" with a susceptability to cultism, and when the boss man says we must drink the Kool Aid, then we drink it. Bottoms up! ;)
 

footwedge

New member
Brian, you must know the answer to this question. You were once a believer in the Cult. You believed what was written in the Cult Book. And the Cult Book was the basis for all those who subsequently started their own Sub-Cults.



What does a cult have to do with a non moving swing center, that's a strrrrrreeetch. By the way how do you know we are all born with a susceptability to cultism, how about hermits...lol.
 
Every single time that real scientists have modeled a golf swing, in 2D or 3D, and a possible parameter was moving the center, whether to optimize for power or a flat spot, or anything worthwhile, the center moves. Every time.........so why all the fascination with a non-moving center??

The center of the body, or the center of the swing?
 
Every single time that real scientists have modeled a golf swing, in 2D or 3D, and a possible parameter was moving the center, whether to optimize for power or a flat spot, or anything worthwhile, the center moves. Every time.........so why all the fascination with a non-moving center??

Sorry if I'm being dense, or pedantic, but I don't understand this. Isn't the first sentence circular? To me, this reads as "Whenever scientists have modeled a swing, in which something moves the center, the center moves."

Can't really argue with that. But it's entirely consistent with "Whenever scientists have modeled a swing in which nothing moves the center, the center stays put."

If the intention was to say:

"Every single time that scientists have modeled a real, successful, golf swing - the center has moved."; or,

"Every single time that scientists have built a model swing and optimised for anything of practical value, the center has moved.";

then I would understand better what this is about.

As for the "fascination with non-moving centers" - if I had to guess an explanation, I'd start with an estimate of whether the average hacker's head appears to move more or less during the swing than that of a pro. I'm not saying that cause and effect don't get a bit muddled that way - but if Brian's question is serious, rather than rhetorical (yeah, I think so too...) that's where I'd start.

However, just for the sake of argument, here's something interesting I read and have retyped (not cut and pasted) for the forum's pleasure:

"...habit simplifies the movements required to achieve a given result, makes them more accurate and diminishes fatigue.

The beginner at the piano not only moves his finger up and down to depress the key, he moves the whole hand, the forearm, even the entire body, especially moving its least rigid part, the head, as if he would press down the key with that too. "

and also

"[as a result of practice] the more easily the movement occurs, the slighter is the stimulus required to set it up; and the slighter the stimulus is, the more its effect is confined..."

That's from William James' chapter on Habit in his book The Principles of Psychology. Please don't ask me whether this counts as real science though...
 
There is only one ball striker around that has absolutely NO moving center. This ball striker can hit it better than any living player. Can you name him?
 
c'mon man!

Seems to me if you had a choice, you'd want the least variables possible......and if you were counting Id imagine you'd find 20-1 good players that head didn't move (much). With that being said there's a ton that do move as well. Surely its not a fit for everyone and in my opinion shouldn't be a must at all costs fundamental. Would you want to make that change to the already short pivot, lacking shoulder turn, "over the top" 80 year old? Probably not. No doubt it has its place in the sun and some legitimicy though. To boil it down to some useless notion of a cult is ignorant.
 
Last edited:
There is one other item I would like to suggest. In order for the "current elite" to accept the science of the golf swing, the current gurus must essentially make a statement that they were wrong. In my humble experience, it has been the further up the chain you go, regardless of the field, the higher you go, the more resistance you have to change. Generally speaking, those who have prospered and done well tend to have big egos (often a key to their success), a substantial investment in the status quo, and frequently have a formal or informal cadre of synchophants and acolytes that reinforce their beliefs.

"There is nothing more difficult to plan, more doubtful of success, more dangerous to manage than the creation of a new system. The innovator has the enmity of all who profit by the preservation of the old system and only lukewarm defenders by those who would gain by the new system."

I'd also like to add, that some people are just very stubborn and dumb. Or at least crooked and unwise.

Not saying fixed centers (or heads) can't work for some. (esp if they are fixed not too much to the golfer's right) I don't think anyone really is, which is good.

For me it was about as simple as 1. athletic or not? 2. does it work or not? 3. what have the best players done?

Dust off the hands...continue on with what works best...

On this one, haven't really even had to go much to 4. what is scientific?
 
Last edited:
BTW...best I can figure out is...if something can be sold, someone will sell it. If you have to spend a bunch of time creating some complex system around that basic idea or not. (or maybe even better that you can- if you want to operate that way just to make a buck) To the detriment of others or not...

...

On "steady heads"..."steady centers"...it is a pretty sellable idea to a relative non-thinker, non-seeker, or just plain old beginner/rec golfer.

It's funny...even when I talk to or play with people who hardly ever golf at all...they very very often take it for granted that they should "keep their head down/still" and "keep their eye on the ball". Even if I play with someone who has basically never played before, they know these ideas and often try to put them into play right away.

They are just these two simple SIMPLE (sellable) ideas that almost everyone has heard of. Ingrained into the golfing vernacular! It will be a tough change, with many people not looking for better ways. But I have to imagine golf and people will widdle it down eventually. (Eventually)

Meanwhile, the Dopes will be comfy enough with the knowledge that it may only take one decent fluke shot and a "See??" to convince a beginner they are right.

But they don't know Manzella is approaching! In the rear view...with a MACK Truck...one with spikes coming out of the rims!!!!!...and fire from the pipes!...and a horn that shakes the very grounnnnddd!!!
 
Last edited:
I don't have a degree in Bio-mechanics. I'm also a product of the Tennessee public school system so I'm really behind the 8-ball on this. However, after having TWO major back surgeries, one a spinal fusion at the age of 45, I decided I needed to do away with what I have always thought was a stretch ( no pun intended ) the X factor and turn my hips. When I started doing this two things happened, one, my head stayed centered not because I tried to keep it there but because my weight stayed left or on my lead foot. The other was I started hitting the ball with more compression, I could keep my legs under my hips and my hips under my torso. I think there is a cult out there that calls this look or feel, or move or whatever you want to call it- stacked. Now, all I know is that at 45 years old I'm hitting it better with what FEELS and LOOKS like to me a centered swing. So, doing what teachers tend to do if we are half decent at playing this game, we show it to our students. Right or wrong that's what happens. There are teachers that teach what THEY are working on in their swing all the time- which is not a good thing. I'm sure I don't have to explain why but it has something to do with everyone being different ;-) But what I have explained above has worked for me and my students. Although I'm friends with the S&T cult, I don't teach it in it's purest form. I'm also a TGM AI that very rarely mentions much about during a lesson- Unless someone wants to know it. I don't necessarily subscribe to every nuance of those philosophies because as an adult I can think for myself. That's what works best for me and my students.

Without high speed video I would have said there have been players over the course of history that did not move their centers ( I've seen video where Hogan seems to move his and I've seen some that looked like he absolutely did not) and guys that really did- Curtis Strange comes to mind. But with the use of high speed video it seems to me that you can find something in every swing that suits your thinking or proves your point.

I hear a lot of rhetoric about the evil methodologists and how they are are so adamant that their WAY is THE way and it is destroying the world. But right or wrong it wouldn't be a very believable method if they didn't think that way would it? I can't convince people that what I'm selling is for real if I don't hail it as the best thing available. If something works I'm going to shout it from the rooftops. Not everyone may agree with it but it's what I do to feed my family, pay my bills, and make a living. When Golf Digest did their article on S&T they went to Plummer and Bennett. Not the other way around. What they had was a compelling method that just happened to keep some journeyman tour guys playing and playing at a level higher than they had ever played before. It wasn't like Foley that had 5 of the top 75 players in world come knocking on his door and he gets all the credit for their entire careers. Those guys had dozens of wins world wide not to mention their amateur careers when they came to him. As much malpractice that goes on in our industry I don't understand the vitriol toward them in particular. They didn't set out to sell snake oil. But every time there is a major debate on the golf swing, they start getting drilled. Especially around here.

Sorry so long.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top