If you can hit a 3 wood in the 260-280 range you....

[Jim Kobylinski]

shouldn't be grabbing a driver for anything under 420-430 yards imo. I hit driver between 280-300 depending on conditions and about 260-280 3 wood. I played a 7000 yard course yesterday (that i play about once a week) and didn't bring my driver.

I only missed 2 fairways and they were just in the light rough; however i only hit 11 greens so i need to work on my iron game. Distance is good but direction seems to be an issue at the moment.

Just to re-emphasize, if you can honestly hit your 3 wood 260-280 then you should be able to hit similar iron distances to me; 5 iron ~ 200 yard club. So even on a 430 yard par 4 3 wood = 260-280 with 170-150 yards left = 7-9 iron.

Something to think about for you longer hitters out there.

 

[Virtuoso]

Yeah I agree, and in my opinion that proves one thing. The modern Driver, made up or not, is absolute junk. e.g far too long (shaft) etc etc etc....................
Sorry to keep going on about this, but really, they are toys.
The best Driver would be 4 inches shorter, 9-10 degrees, 100cc smaller and designed to be hit with a neutral blow, possible descending slightly . I blame all the knuckleheads (which is most golfers sadly) who got sucked in to this absolute BALONEY .
If every tour player out there played with a 300cc driver and he didn't have to hit up , try to hit a sweet spot that the brain can't decipher, or trying to hit some other kinda trick shot, his scores would go DOWN , PERIOD!
And every hacker, single or double digit average golfer would have half a chance, instead of being ripped off.
Actually i reckon with modern technology , such a club would give too good results, hence the lack of progress.
Rant over. .

What design changes would you make to the head that would optimize a nuetral blow or slightly descending?

 

[Richie3Jack]

I disagree because there's a big advantage to hitting a shot approximately 40-50 yards further with the driver. PGA Tour stats are pretty convincing in this area.

For example. If you look at the average prox. to cup for PGA Tour players from say....125-150 yards from the rough and say 175-200 yards from the fairway and other similar increments, the guys in the rough but much closer are usually hitting it as close if not closer than the guys further away in the fairway. It sorta depends on the distance increments you set, but 50 yards closer or so is a B-I-G advantage. And if they are 50 yards closer and in the fairway, it's an enormous advantage.

Typically from the same distance away, PGA Tour players are about 30% more accurate if they are in the fairway than if they are in the rough. So, hitting the fairway is important. My belief is that back in the 80's and earlier than that, when rough was actually intimidating, that discrepancy was even larger.

But, the reason why I think guys can get away with missing so many fairways today is because they hit the drivers so much further and as long as the approach shot is not 'impeded' (fairway bunker, trees, extra long rough, water, O.B, etc), they'll probably make out okay and when they do hit the fairway, they are in good shape to make that birdie.

I have some other thoughts on this, but I'd like to formulate them a bit better.





3JACK

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I disagree because there's a big advantage to hitting a shot approximately 40-50 yards further with the driver. PGA Tour stats are pretty convincing in this area.

For example. If you look at the average prox. to cup for PGA Tour players from say....125-150 yards from the rough and say 175-200 yards from the fairway and other similar increments, the guys in the rough but much closer are usually hitting it as close if not closer than the guys further away in the fairway. It sorta depends on the distance increments you set, but 50 yards closer or so is a B-I-G advantage. And if they are 50 yards closer and in the fairway, it's an enormous advantage.

Typically from the same distance away, PGA Tour players are about 30% more accurate if they are in the fairway than if they are in the rough. So, hitting the fairway is important. My belief is that back in the 80's and earlier than that, when rough was actually intimidating, that discrepancy was even larger.

But, the reason why I think guys can get away with missing so many fairways today is because they hit the drivers so much further and as long as the approach shot is not 'impeded' (fairway bunker, trees, extra long rough, water, O.B, etc), they'll probably make out okay and when they do hit the fairway, they are in good shape to make that birdie.

I have some other thoughts on this, but I'd like to formulate them a bit better.





3JACK

No offense richie but you are comparing PGA players to amatuers who visit this site; let alone the difference in accuracy that there will be between these two groups but few select groups of amatuers can even setup and properly create the impact alignments necessary to hit a 4 iron well let alone a driver.

Why do you think the "thriver" is so popular to online users? For those who don't know a "thriver" is generally a high lofted short shafted driver; something in the 43.5-44.5" 12-13*.

 

[footwedge]

I don't get it they can't hit a 4 iron well yet they should be able to hit their 3 wood 280 in the fairway?

 

[Richie3Jack]

Jim, most amateurs cannot hit their 3-wood 260-280 yards off the tee. I'm pretty darn happy if I pipe a 3-wood 260 yards off the tee. I probably max out at 275.

So with somebody who can hit a 3-wood that long, they should be able to hit a driver pretty well and gain 30-60 yards with a driver.

I agree that driver shafts are way too long these days. More golfers should be using shafts probably in the 44 inch to 45 inch range instead of the 46.5 inch range. But, that just takes a different shaft, not abandoning the driver all together.

I will put it this way for example, Bubba Watson uses a 44.75" long driver. So long graphite shafts are probably more bad than good.








3JACK

 

[Olof Karlson]

I really should buy a 3 wood...

But if I had one it'd probably hurt me because I would go for a few more par 5s in two

 

[softconsult]

I'll chime in. I play in a Seniors League, 55 and over, twice a week. First flight plays from the white (regular) tees. We rotate through 25 different courses. Average length 5,500 to 6,000 yards. My 5 iron is 185. Driver 230'ish carry, but wild. I have continued to ask myself how I can hit 5 iron, 4 iron reliably straight, but as soon as I pick up the graphite's hybrids to Driver, I loose the consistency. Mountain golf adds to the need for accuracy off the tee.

My latest fitted Driver is a Titleist D3 8.5 to 10 degree with a RIP 60 stiff shaft, 45 inches in length. A week ago Sunday, I went to a Titleist Demo day. I had an appointment, but the rep had few customers. I explained this erractic with graphite phenom to him. I told him that a consistent 3 wood would solve my tee problems.

Titleist now offers the FD which is designed for tee shots. We kept trying shafts ( He had a bunch). Finally, he handed me a UST ProForce V2 86 gram Stiff which made up to 1/2" short. I immediately started hitting it straight. Switch back to my 3 wood with Voodoo stiff and the inconsistency returned. So I tell him to do the same thing in the new hybrid. He gave me a heavy stiff tipped Fujikura Motore with the same result. They are supposed to arrive by the end of this week. If they perform on the course, then I may only be hitting Driver on reachable Par 5's. He also had me hit my Driver, but with 44 1/2 length. I liked it better.

So my point is that for my situation, all I need to do is hit the tee shot to 150 yards (8 iron) and I'm golden. Not news to me, but current 3 wood and hybrids just don't give me that confident feeling.

 

[natep]

Are the sweetspots really on the top of the face these days? Mine feels like its right in the center.

 

[faux_maestro]

Are the sweetspots really on the top of the face these days? Mine feels like its right in the center.

They may be in the center but the sweet spot is definitely higher in relation to old drivers. My favorite drivers were the Big Bertha War Bird, the early titanium Great Big Bertha and the Taylor Made 360 titanium. The sweet spot was much lower in relation to the ground. I've had trouble adjusting since those days. Smaller head/shallower face=lower sweet spot.

 

[ekennedy]

I will take it a step further. 260-280 with a 3 wood puts you in the top 1 tenth of 1 percent of people that play golf, so lets back off the distance so that its relatable to mere mortals. 230-240 off the tee and IN PLAY allows you to play any golf course in America if you play the proper tees...which is a whole different story. I really don't care how long golf courses are on the PGA Tour. I was at Aronimink last week and nearly every guy out there hits the ball a ton...but the fairways a rolling 10 or 11 on the stimpmeter. I've played there a bunch and I can't hit the ball where they do and my members can't hit the ball where I do...so, what's the moral? You can par every hole on earth with a 240 yd tee shot IN PLAY. If you think that Tour Players are making birdies from outside 180 yds, don't kid yourself. They make birdies on par fives and short par fours. Aronimink has two par fives, thus the scores are mostly in single digits under par.

 

[Jared Willerson]

Jim, do you have trackman #'s? What is you swing speed and ball speed with a driver?

Your distance is well above the posted trackman averages for the PGA Tour, that is huge.

 

[mgranato]

I've never stood just off the fairway with a wedge in my hand and wished I was 40 yards farther back standing in the middle of the fairway.

 

[mgranato]

Yeah I agree, and in my opinion that proves one thing. The modern Driver, made up or not, is absolute junk. e.g far too long (shaft) etc etc etc....................
Sorry to keep going on about this, but really, they are toys.
The best Driver would be 4 inches shorter, 9-10 degrees, 100cc smaller and designed to be hit with a neutral blow, possible descending slightly . I blame all the knuckleheads (which is most golfers sadly) who got sucked in to this absolute BALONEY .
If every tour player out there played with a 300cc driver and he didn't have to hit up , try to hit a sweet spot that the brain can't decipher, or trying to hit some other kinda trick shot, his scores would go DOWN , PERIOD!
And every hacker, single or double digit average golfer would have half a chance, instead of being ripped off.
Actually i reckon with modern technology , such a club would give too good results, hence the lack of progress.
Rant over. .

42" driver = legal
9-10 degree driver = legal
300cc driver = legal
Descending blow with driver = legal

Every preference you listed for a "better" driver is available for you to play...

So the question is, what driver is in your bag?

 

[Jwat]

I've never stood just off the fairway with a wedge in my hand and wished I was 40 yards farther back standing in the middle of the fairway.

+1

From my experience, the golfers who complain about modern equipment are guys who are living in the past. Guys who used to be good at golf with the old equipment and now are being surpassed by guys who aren't half as talented.

Dannyuk32, i'll tell you like I tell my uncle, "Go pull out your old hogan blades and old titleist driver and play golf the way it is supposed to be played, i'll give you 2 strokes a side."

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I don't get it they can't hit a 4 iron well yet they should be able to hit their 3 wood 280 in the fairway?

You can scale back the distance to something more appropriate for yourself; say you are playing from 6500 yard tees and hit 3 wood 240 you should have a similar iron into the par 4.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jim, most amateurs cannot hit their 3-wood 260-280 yards off the tee. I'm pretty darn happy if I pipe a 3-wood 260 yards off the tee. I probably max out at 275. So with somebody who can hit a 3-wood that long, they should be able to hit a driver pretty well and gain 30-60 yards with a driver. I agree that driver shafts are way too long these days. More golfers should be using shafts probably in the 44 inch to 45 inch range instead of the 46.5 inch range. But, that just takes a different shaft, not abandoning the driver all together. I will put it this way for example, Bubba Watson uses a 44.75" long driver. So long graphite shafts are probably more bad than good.

I do have about a 40-50 yard gap between 3 wood and driver. As i mentioned to footwedge, you can dial back the distance and the tees to suit your distance situation.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I will take it a step further. 260-280 with a 3 wood puts you in the top 1 tenth of 1 percent of people that play golf, so lets back off the distance so that its relatable to mere mortals.

LOL i doubt it and my length varies based on the "stimpmeter" (as you put it" of the fairway). Decent amount of roll and it's 270, very little roll and it's more like 250-260. I play with people who are longer than me so i never feel the longest unless i play with some of my other students.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jim, do you have trackman #'s? What is you swing speed and ball speed with a driver?

Your distance is well above the posted trackman averages for the PGA Tour, that is huge.

Where are the posted averages? I thought swing speed was somewhere around 112mph and total distance with roll somewhere around 280. I haven't been on a trackman in a long time and i lost a lot of swing speed the last couple years because i packed on some weight and my swing speed and ball speed dropped dramatically from my old 110-112mph days. I have lost 44lbs since November and using the GPS on my phone and in carts i generally don't have an issue carrying objects in the 265-275 range (depending on how well i struck it) and with some average roll that ends up being somewhere in the 275-295 and if the fairways are baked out a little bit and roll more i get 280-300.

I remember a long time ago before trackman we used to use the old formula of swing speed * 2.5 = maximum possible carry distance; however i always found 2.5 was a bit too optimistic and used more like 2.45; so if you take 110/112 * 2.45 = 269/274 carry so seems appropriate.

I don't think i'm THAT long, i play with some guys who swing 115-118mph and even one of them can carry the ball almost 290 and puts me to shame . However when i play casually i generally am the longest; *shrug*

EDIT: Just looked up the stats and came up with the following for PGA tour averages:

Avg swing speed: 112.81
Avg ball speed: 166.79
Avg carry distance: 269.34
Avg total distance: 288.06

The above was just taking a simple average of the stats posted; plus if you take the carry divided by swing speed you get 2.39 which is close to my 2.45 number but a bit lower; doesn't surprise me since most of those guys aren't as optimized as they could be.

So i would say on a normal "shaggy" fairway with not that great of a running stimp i would be in the 270-280 range and with a decent run is somewhere around 280-300. A lot of depends on fairway "run" so i always like to try and figure it out by carry distances. I know that on my best hits i can carry 275 but in general my "safe" carry distance with a driver is 260-265.

So i would say i am near the average and not above it at all.

 

[bgoodyear]

On average I hit my 9 degree 45" driver no more than 10 yards past my 15.5 degree 3W. And the 3W is long, in the 260-280 range. I agree with Jim about using it more often. My best 2 9's this year I bagged the driver altogether and played 3W from the tips.

The gain in accuracy is substantial and, at least for me, the loss in distance is minimal. Granted I still can't figure out how to hit up with the driver retaining control.

Every once in a while I pop a 3W up short by getting under the teed ball so I've been looking for a driver with more 3W type characteristics but they are hard to come by. It seems that every 12-13 degree driver is 46" long with a senior flex.