Now ain't that the truth! I have two drivers in the trunk of my car. The usual frying pan attached to telephone pole and a Titleist 975D with a 43 inch shaft! I have to admit that I am sensitive to the "check out the museum piece" ribbing I get from my playing partners. I hit the old girls a lot more consistently, but there is a giant gap in distance when I catch them both on the button. The 975D is the prettiest head that Titleist has made. I have speculated that I am more consistent with the older club because of the shaft length as well as the smaller head...which seems easier to hit down with. I save hitting up for "stand back...you might get sucked in" drives. Prefer the sound as well.
If you can hit a 3 wood in the 260-280 range you....
- Thread starter Jim Kobylinski
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Obviously, the distances Jim cited are for better players than can move it pretty well out there. I think it is a valid point even if you "doink" it out there 215 with a 3 wood. I have noticed (in my small world) a resurgence of the 5 wood. I forget who it was (Tom Wishon, I think) that thought that whichever club you could hit 70% of your fairways with IS your "driver." I can break par hitting considerably fewer fairways than that as long there are no foul balls in the mix. My buddies and I occassionaly play an "iron man" competition where we are only allowed to hit irons (no hybrids allowed) I put the old 2 iron in the bag for the occassion.
The USGA put out a scale of some sort that suggests what length of course is best for a player based on their driver length. Now if courses would limit opportunities for stroke and distance penalties we might just get the average round under 4 hours. My point is a 220 tee shot on a 6400 yard course is going to be in good shape.
The USGA put out a scale of some sort that suggests what length of course is best for a player based on their driver length. Now if courses would limit opportunities for stroke and distance penalties we might just get the average round under 4 hours. My point is a 220 tee shot on a 6400 yard course is going to be in good shape.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
This was the point i was trying to make; if i can knock it out there 260-280 and be OK on a 7000 yard course and you play from the up tees @ say 6400-6500 yards and hit the 3 wood 25-40 yards shorter you should still be OK.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
I looked up the average stats for 3 wood carry on the PGA tour and it is roughly 243-244 yards with a 3 wood. However they don't know the loft and don't know how optimized it is for distance vs. fairway use.
Looking at the avg driver/iron stats i am very similar but much longer with the 3 wood and 5 wood and i suspect it because i have optimized them more for distance than say a high soft landing shot from the fairway. If i played a softer shaft that launches/spins it more i would definitely be shorter. Also i play an older Titleist 906F fairway wood and they were known to be cannons off the tee.
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Regardless, my only point was that if you play from shorter tees and hit it shorter than me the appropriate amount you should have similar results. I probably should have stated that more clearer.
I know what your saying Jim but I see lot's of people that cannot hit a 3wood very well either and that doesn't stop them from using it so what would make you think they wouldn't use their driver "just because they can't hit it very well and it makes their score inflated" that's just not enough of a deterrent...lol.
mjstrong
New
Do people generally hit their fairway woods with more consistent contact and straighter than their driver? I'm not sure most amateurs do.
I gotta agree with Richie3Jack, that most people are better off hitting a 7 iron from the rough than a 4 iron from the maybe-fairway. Just my opinion.
Edit: especially since most golf course's rough isn't necessarily as penalizing, nor hole locations as protected as what we see on TV.
I gotta agree with Richie3Jack, that most people are better off hitting a 7 iron from the rough than a 4 iron from the maybe-fairway. Just my opinion.
Edit: especially since most golf course's rough isn't necessarily as penalizing, nor hole locations as protected as what we see on TV.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
They should yes, simply from the extra loft. But it isn't a guarantee.
BrendanC
New
There are some holes where it is perfectly obvious that you should give driver a really good smack - where you have a really wide fairway or something. Or maybe you just feel good.
There are other holes where a safer swing with driver is needed and some holes where a 3 wood or a 5 wood is probably the best option because the fairway narrows or something.
I think that for amateurs being 'in play' from off the tee with some kind of viable second shot to the green (par 4) should determine strategy.
"Where is the shortest I can hit it, and still have a shot at the green?"
The more I play, the more I think this whole idea of taking the same aggressive swing on every shot is totally wrong - bound up with the idea you can build some perfect golf swing on a driving range and bring it to the course.
There are other holes where a safer swing with driver is needed and some holes where a 3 wood or a 5 wood is probably the best option because the fairway narrows or something.
I think that for amateurs being 'in play' from off the tee with some kind of viable second shot to the green (par 4) should determine strategy.
"Where is the shortest I can hit it, and still have a shot at the green?"
The more I play, the more I think this whole idea of taking the same aggressive swing on every shot is totally wrong - bound up with the idea you can build some perfect golf swing on a driving range and bring it to the course.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
I played on a 6,200 yard course once with Lindsay Gahm, and hit 3-wood on every driving hole since i had left my driver at home.
I cruised to an even par round, and never missed a fairway. I even drew it on all the "draw" holes and faded it on all the "fade" holes, sometime I can't do with my driver in a "for real" round with any degree of certainty.
"Why wouldn't you just do that all of the time?" asked Linds. "Because I'd have 3-wood into every hole from the tips," I replied.
I hear what Jim is saying, but I favor learning to hit the driver. And getting one that REALLY fits.
As far as distance goes, I swing my 3-wood in the mid-90's. It can go pretty far, but 280 would require a runway or Bandon Dunes downwind in June.
I cruised to an even par round, and never missed a fairway. I even drew it on all the "draw" holes and faded it on all the "fade" holes, sometime I can't do with my driver in a "for real" round with any degree of certainty.
"Why wouldn't you just do that all of the time?" asked Linds. "Because I'd have 3-wood into every hole from the tips," I replied.
I hear what Jim is saying, but I favor learning to hit the driver. And getting one that REALLY fits.
As far as distance goes, I swing my 3-wood in the mid-90's. It can go pretty far, but 280 would require a runway or Bandon Dunes downwind in June.
Richie3Jack
New
I agree. I also understand what Jim is saying, but there's an advantage to hitting it longer. One stat I track is what I call 'shots impeded.' They are approach shots, 2nd shots on par-5's and 2nd shots on par-3's that are not in the following conditions:
- O.B.
- Water
- Fairway bunker
- Greenside bunker
- Trees (or I have to hit it above or under a tree)
- Thick rough or deep rough
There's a movie coming out based on the book 'Moneyball' by Michael Lewis. The book (and movies) is how the Oakland A's used statistics to put together pennant winning baseball teams despite having one of the lowest payrolls in baseball. I've seen the trailer, they talk about one of the basic principles of intensive baseball statistics (often referred to as SABREmetrics)...you're not trying to buy players...you're trying to buy runs. If a team in baseball scores the most runs in a season, odds are that they win the World Series or at least make the playoffs..regardless of how bad they are at other parts of the game.
There's more to it than that, but a part of golf is we are trying to 'buy' yards. Even 20 yards is very very helpful.
The reason why guys like Mickelson don't win more often is that they leave themselves with impeded golf shots. So for all of the yards they gain off the driver, they lose them when they punch out or hit the trees when trying to fly one over. Obviously, there are other elements to this as well, but if one sticks with their 3-wood and eschews the driver they are basically costing themselves a lot of yards which costs them a lot of strokes. And from my experience, sooner or later they start hitting the 3-wood poorly.
I estimate on the PGA Tour....guys who hit driver but find the rough (but are not impeded) are probably as accurate if not slightly more accurate on the 2nd shot than if they hit 3-wood off the tee. And those who hit driver and find the fairway are about 50% more accurate than if they hit 3-wood off the tee and hit the fairway. Think about that for a second, that's like the choice between having a 30 footer or a 15 footer.
I'll also say that if one keeps that 'shots impeded' stat for their own game, they'll realize how difficult it is to go an entire round without a shot impeded meeting my criteria. A lot of times my low is 2 shots impeded for the round and it's not a coincidence those are the rounds that I 'score well' on.
YR
- O.B.
- Water
- Fairway bunker
- Greenside bunker
- Trees (or I have to hit it above or under a tree)
- Thick rough or deep rough
There's a movie coming out based on the book 'Moneyball' by Michael Lewis. The book (and movies) is how the Oakland A's used statistics to put together pennant winning baseball teams despite having one of the lowest payrolls in baseball. I've seen the trailer, they talk about one of the basic principles of intensive baseball statistics (often referred to as SABREmetrics)...you're not trying to buy players...you're trying to buy runs. If a team in baseball scores the most runs in a season, odds are that they win the World Series or at least make the playoffs..regardless of how bad they are at other parts of the game.
There's more to it than that, but a part of golf is we are trying to 'buy' yards. Even 20 yards is very very helpful.
The reason why guys like Mickelson don't win more often is that they leave themselves with impeded golf shots. So for all of the yards they gain off the driver, they lose them when they punch out or hit the trees when trying to fly one over. Obviously, there are other elements to this as well, but if one sticks with their 3-wood and eschews the driver they are basically costing themselves a lot of yards which costs them a lot of strokes. And from my experience, sooner or later they start hitting the 3-wood poorly.
I estimate on the PGA Tour....guys who hit driver but find the rough (but are not impeded) are probably as accurate if not slightly more accurate on the 2nd shot than if they hit 3-wood off the tee. And those who hit driver and find the fairway are about 50% more accurate than if they hit 3-wood off the tee and hit the fairway. Think about that for a second, that's like the choice between having a 30 footer or a 15 footer.
I'll also say that if one keeps that 'shots impeded' stat for their own game, they'll realize how difficult it is to go an entire round without a shot impeded meeting my criteria. A lot of times my low is 2 shots impeded for the round and it's not a coincidence those are the rounds that I 'score well' on.
YR
I play a 15.5° 906F4 and its usually longer than my playing partners drivers. It really is a cannon. Its got a heavy Proforce V2 shaft.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Thanks, now I don't feel so bad. Mine is the same degree as well. It, at the time, was the only deep faced low hitting fairway off the tee that I could still elevate off the deck when needed.
Actually i looked and mine is the F2 which has the more forward COG that tends to hit it flatter/lower
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self-mastery
New
What's a 3 wood? Fairway woods?
My bag goes Driver, 19* hybrid 26* hybrid, 4i-9i 50*PW - 56*SW - 60*LW
Give up short irons and PW into greens with their loft and accuracy? NO!
I say suck it up and learn how to hit driver. I spent several years nuking iron shots and hooking and slicing drives. At one point I was leaving my driver at home, and playing a hybrid off the tee. I put in the time and now the driver is my deadliest weapon.
My bag goes Driver, 19* hybrid 26* hybrid, 4i-9i 50*PW - 56*SW - 60*LW
Give up short irons and PW into greens with their loft and accuracy? NO!
I say suck it up and learn how to hit driver. I spent several years nuking iron shots and hooking and slicing drives. At one point I was leaving my driver at home, and playing a hybrid off the tee. I put in the time and now the driver is my deadliest weapon.
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