Illustration of kinetic chain

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Nice illustration, some difficulty to relate it to a golf swing though. The top speed is high because the chain is 8m long! What would 2m chain do - 1/16 of it (maybe not that simple)?

Kinetic energy is not caused by snapping a kinetic chain. It is caused by gravity force doing work on the segments.
This makes perfect sense. It got me wondering what you meant by this comment on your web page.
When Cochran & Stobbs et al. and also Jorgensen calculated the horsepower required for a pro type golf swing they came to the conclusion that the contribution of the big muscles was necessarily required. However they overlooked the additional power available due to the typical action of the kinetic chain
Since gravity does not do the majority of the work in a real golf swing (right?), don't the muscles have to do it? Then again I do not know what is referred as big muscles here nor what these guys based their calculations on.


Other question I've been wondering a long time is how the kinetic energy transfer happens from hips to shoulders and what makes it more or less effective? How does the proximal to distal work here or is it that? Does axis tilt have something to do with making shoulders distal relative to hips? Shoulders to arms to club is pretty obvious chain.
 
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I can see physically by the picture of what your trying to say however this doesn't seem to take into account for two features.

Obviously it shows a physics concept of the movement progressively down from segment to segment until the 'whip' comes back inline but what you have to think is that if you reduce the segments to the number of centers that occurs in a real golf stroke - the left shoulder and left hand = 2... you have real problems with the model in terms of convincability.

I would doubt that it also doesn't take in to account the mass difference between the arm and club, a form 3 lever..
Deadly_Scope,

If I understand you correctly you are implying that the concept of kinetic chain is quite all right for multi-segments but does not really apply to only 2 segments as you imply to exist for a golfer's swing. I am sure that Brian will now change his signature immediately to accommodate your opinion. :D

Actually the kinetic chain of a golfer starts from the ground up, starting in the feet and working its way up via legs, hips, trunk, shoulders, arms, wrist and finally to the golf club. They are therefore forming a multi-segment kinetic chain and an effortless swing is one where the cumulative effect of kinetic energy transfer is obtained.

There are however in the archives various posts showing clearly the same kinetic energy taking place also for only 2 segments. Let there be no doubt about it, 2, 3, or more linked masses are all forming a kinetic chain showing energy transfer between its linked members when in motion.

In my opening post I am simply and foremost trying to make the concept of kinetic chain and its typical velocity multiplication action visually and intuitively clear for the maximum number of people. You doubt that it is really a value in an actual golf swing. I don't agree. ;)
 
Deadly_Scope,

If I understand you correctly you are implying that the concept of kinetic chain is quite all right for multi-segments but does not really apply to only 2 segments as you imply to exist for a golfer's swing. I am sure that Brian will now change his signature immediately to accommodate your opinion. :D

Yes it matters. What I am saying is the model isn't a good one. In practical terms to the golfer you are showing a diagram to illustrate a concept. Your basically conceptualising a physics concept on the mechanics of whipping a whip but it doesn't work that way and when if your going to dumb this down, it is more like pushing a swing. The pivot moves and puts a force against and lags the entire primary lever assembly with a slight tension keeping the tension that keeps the clubhead inside the hand orbit but once the body is no longer is in position to push it anymore the mass of the clubhead moves somewhat on a straight line away from a line drawn from the left shoulder to the clubhead... this can be called centrifugal acceleration (note acceleration not force) which slows down the entire motion as the clubhead freewheels around the hand with respect to anatomical considerations.

Actually the kinetic chain of a golfer starts from the ground up, starting in the feet and working its way up via legs, hips, trunk, shoulders, arms, wrist and finally to the golf club. They are therefore forming a multi-segment kinetic chain and an effortless swing is one where the cumulative effect of kinetic energy transfer is obtained.

Actually the downstroke is initiated by muscles in the legs. Leg motion is basically hip motions because of the two anchor points on the ground - one for each leg. The legs have to balance the body and whilst the feet can feel like they are pushing twisting into the turf, the muscles in the legs are responsible for moving the lower body's skeletal structure. It is this countering effect of balance that is responsible for the changes between the foot and the fibula that effect the movement of the ankle joint.

I mean it sounds good and all and its really not 'damaging' advice to golfers but I hold you to a higher standard than I would of the Butch Harmons of this world and as such I can't let you get away with the cavalier descriptions because you don't have the luxury to have anything other than teaching on the grounds of it being scientific and so far you have avoided the difficult questions and not laid out a plan to tackle them.

In my opening post I am simply and foremost trying to make the concept of kinetic chain and its typical velocity multiplication action visually and intuitively clear for the maximum number of people. You doubt that it is really a value in an actual golf swing. I don't agree. ;)

Your right, it doesn't have any real value to a golfer because your ideas are conceptualised without understanding structure and how things interact inside a 3d enviroment.
 
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Comments on “Comments- Food for thought”

Here's what I notice:
The last segment of the string of segments that is the fourth from the right - looks incorrect.

You seem to ignore that there are higher order modes in oscillatory systems. So, don't worry, all is quite correct and I can easily remove these higher order modes by introducing a very small damping at the joints. I am trying to avoid mentioning these things to not confuse people with details. However whenever I try to keep to the essential features people start asking about details. :rolleyes:

There is an interesting relationship in that each proximal segment accelerates until the next distal segment to it- reaches a point where it is 90 degrees to the force (in this case parallell to the ground given the vertical force of gravity). As that more distal segment moves beyond perpendicular to the force- this creates/corresponds to a deceleration of the more proximal segment- regardless of the location of the other distal segments in your example.

What kind of acceleration are you talking about. Is it angular acceleration. Is it linear acceleration. Is it perhaps both? Do you mean relative or absolute acceleration? If you want to discuss, delving into details, try to be more precise.

When you state "But is clear from above that all this takes place here automatically" - whether you know it or not it's a comment that really prevents further thought on the subject- a roadblock for an inquiring mind.

Rather intriguing statement.

Things drop automatically whenever released due to gravity. Does that really entice someone from refraining to ask why, and not want to study gravitational forces?

Whenever someone takes in food it automatically leaves the body at some point of time. Does that prevent curiosity and the study of what possibly happens to food inside the human body?

I'd give you an "A-" for laying out the mathematics, a "C" for providing something of value in regards to understanding why those conditions are happening and a "D" for providing something out of it that could be useful for a golfer to understand and apply which would help their ball flight improve.

Let me simply remind you that I am frequently reminded by many posters to be child like in possible explanations of complex topics. That, in my mind, seems to refer to not overwhelm posters with too many complicated details and go one step at a time.

But if you want to write me a complete PHD thesis, covering in one post all that possibly could concern a golf swing, moreover compressed into the few lines of a post on a golf forum, I am afraid that I have to admit that I am not yet capable of such feat. :D
 

djd

New
Kinetic Chain and PGA Tour Driving Distances

Perhaps we could add a new dimension to this conversation with an examination of the application of this theory in real swings. Charles Warren is a little guy (5’8” 160lbs) that hits it a long way (10th in Driving Distance @ 301.6) while Bob Tway is a much bigger guy (6’4” 195lbs) but hits it statistically a good bit shorter (168th in Driving Distance @279.0) … I suspect the difference is due more to sequencing and technique than to strength … maybe an analysis of how they snap their respective kinetic chains will help explain the difference

Charles Warren Multiple Swings: PING _PROS

Bob Tway Face-on Driver Swing: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqlZmT-7hL0[/media]
 
Yes it matters. What I am saying is the model isn't a good one. In practical terms to the golfer you are showing a diagram to illustrate a concept. Your basically conceptualising a physics concept on the mechanics of whipping a whip but it doesn't work that way and when if your going to dumb this down, it is more like pushing a swing. The pivot moves and puts a force against and lags the entire primary lever assembly with a slight tension keeping the tension that keeps the clubhead inside the hand orbit but once the body is no longer is in position to push it anymore the mass of the clubhead moves somewhat on a straight line away from a line drawn from the left shoulder to the clubhead... this can be called centrifugal acceleration (note acceleration not force) which slows down the entire motion as the clubhead freewheels around the hand with respect to anatomical considerations.

Actually the downstroke is initiated by muscles in the legs. Leg motion is basically hip motions because of the two anchor points on the ground - one for each leg. The legs have to balance the body and whilst the feet can feel like they are pushing twisting into the turf, the muscles in the legs are responsible for moving the lower body's skeletal structure. It is this countering effect of balance that is responsible for the changes between the foot and the fibula that effect the movement of the ankle joint.

I mean it sounds good and all and its really not 'damaging' advice to golfers but I hold you to a higher standard than I would of the Butch Harmons of this world and as such I can't let you get away with the cavalier descriptions because you don't have the luxury to have anything other than teaching on the grounds of it being scientific and so far you have avoided the difficult questions and not laid out a plan to tackle them.

Your right, it doesn't have any real value to a golfer because your ideas are conceptualised without understanding structure and how things interact inside a 3d enviroment.
Deadly_Scope,


Let me try to explain it to you in simple terms.


On this forum there is frequently mentioning of kinetic chains.

Many I am sure have not the slightest clue what this is all about.

I am interested enough to spent mulcho time to explain it.

Hence my goal is simply to demystify the concept of kinetic chain.


Therefore,


I am not discussing the practical merits of use of models in golf

I am not discussing biomechanics, physiology or psychology.

I am not discussing ball flight or how to cope with difficult lies.

I am not discussing mental techniques to cope with stress.


So once more to really get through,


I am simply trying to explain the concept of kinetic chain.

Linked masses allowing velocity multiplication at the tip.

That's it that's all. :rolleyes:
 
How much adjustment is made for the joints working on different planes in terms of the maths?

The models are excellent in their representations using stick figures....how much are biomechanics and physiology factored in?
Damon,

In science there is always a desire for models to be as simple as possible yet still containing the essentials. This is for a good reason since most problems are very complex. A double pendulum planar model is a very good illustration. It is a very simplified mathematical model of a golfer yet is has been very instrumental in the understanding of the golf swing. Scientists agree that this simple mathematical model can be extended to 3 segments but beyond that it looses it practical value.

Damon, tell me why do you want this 8 equal length segment model to represent a golfer? Why do you want to see it operating in 3 dimensions? Why do you want it to have muscles, bones and tissues? Why do you want to include the functioning of organs, and other anatomic structures? You can't have it all at the same time. You want to complexify extensively and hence are not reasoning like one does in science. Simplify, break into constituent parts, that is a more useful and practical approach.

It is very instructive to glance through the indexes of the various “Proceedings of the World Scientific Congress of Golf”. You will immediately notice that the scientific papers cover very narrow specific subjects, usually having multiple authors. Scientific progress is a patient process advancing in very mall steps. Please, don't ask me in few lines, to embrace all and everything.
 

Damon Lucas

Super Moderator
Thank you Mandrin, I appreciate your honesty and clarification.

What would you like to see studied, vis a vis the other disciplines?

We have some of the more intelligent golf professionals around here, led by BM of course, who would like(I assume) to be involved in studies, testing, and furthering of golfdom's knowledge.

I imagine that there would be the odd student willing to participate as well.

Thanks again.
 
Nice illustration, some difficulty to relate it to a golf swing though. The top speed is high because the chain is 8m long! What would 2m chain do - 1/16 of it (maybe not that simple)?

The resulting graphs for a 2m long chain, same masses, are virtually identical to that shown in Figs 1, 2 and 3, albeit taking less time to accomplish. The peak tip velocity is, for this case, 136 miles/hour instead of 332 miles/hour. Hence much higher velocity than your guess, there being a reduction of maximum tip velocity of only 2.4 times instead of your guess of 16 times less.

Since gravity does not do the majority of the work in a real golf swing (right?), don't the muscles have to do it?

Contracting muscles, producing torque, indeed do power the swing. Gravity is minor contributor in a full fledged swing.

Then again I do not know what is referred as big muscles here nor what these guys based their calculations on.

Big muscles are those of the legs, thighs, back and shoulders. They used the assumption that 1/8 horsepower is produced by a single contraction of a large muscle.

Other question I've been wondering a long time is how the kinetic energy transfer happens from hips to shoulders and what makes it more or less effective?

Common sense tells us that the relevant muscles should not be relaxed. There has to be a definite tautness to be able to transmit torque and hence kinetic energy from hips to shoulders.

How does the proximal to distal work here or is it that?

Hips can have there motion started and arrested slightly in advance of the shoulders.

Does axis tilt have something to do with making shoulders distal relative to hips?

In the kinetic chain from feet to clubhead, the shoulders are simply more distal relative to hips by their position in this kinetic chain.
 
I just not interested

Ben Doyle had me stand behind him with both hands on his shoulders. He hit a shot. His shoulders were in constant motion. I couldn't hold hands with him while he hit so I couldn't feel his hand motion. He talked about throw out and shooting. So his shoulders didn't snap anything. McHatton talks about constant motion. That is good enough for me. Besides I'm an old arthritic guy and I am not only afraid to snap anything and also petrified to stop moving
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
If people want to believe the Kinetic Chain doesn't exist, they are free to do it.

I know how to teach it, or at least encourage it to happen.

As far as Ben and McHatton go, they BOTH teach snapping the chain in their own way.
 
i am not questioning your ability, mandrin, or Mr Manzella's ability i am in agreement that tpi kinematic sequence testing is flawed.What's your view Mandrin ? and your view Mr Manzella ?
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Funny,

some guys like golfspike, bronco billy, and nm golfer say: nah

I say: yeah

Mandrin says: yeah

Every 3d company says: yeah

People who think TPI is a cult say: yeah

Hmmm.....
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Ok folks, answer THIS!

What are the 3D machine measuring?

Why does Sergio's chain snap better than Funk's?

When I throw a club, why don't I finish "all the way around" like when I hit a ball?????

Why do pulls go farther than pushes, even with similar path vs. clubface vs. loft numbers?

Why does Lindsay Gahm's tee shots go so far with nearly a full sweep release?
 
Brian, I spoke to Dr. Zick about snapping a kinetic chain in the golf swing and he replied that it would not be advantageous to have anything big or bigger slow down or stop in the golf swing in order to make something smaller go faster. He said that it is necessary to create a negative torque on the handle of a bullwhip after you have applied a positive torque to it in order for the tail of the whip to crack or snap. He mentioned snapping a towel as another example. I may have misunderstood him but I'm pretty sure he described whipcracking and towel snapping as examples of a kinetic chain snap and strongly implied that good golfswings are not examples of kinetic chain snaps as you should never attempt to apply a negative torque on the handle of a golf club to snap the clubhead through impact because your arms and hands would not just need to slow down or stop to do so but would need to rapidly reverse their travel.

I'm a golf instructor with an English degree who realizes that most words have many meanings and many words are interpreted differently depending on one's culture, background, and experience. Are whipcracking and towelsnapping examples of snapping a kinetic chain? I understand in pictures and I picture hurting myself in the hands-wrists- forearms area should I attempt to apply a true whipcrack negative torque snap on a golf club that I just propelled toward the ball.

Another area I'm confused about is your example of some loose object on your dashboard picking up speed when your car slows or stops. I always thought that if a car going 60mph suddenly stopped, then that object on the dashboard would just keep going the same 60mph it was going before the car stopped. The object can't pick up speed unless something like another car collides head on with the 60mph car. If the other car is going 50 mph you'd really see that dashboard object pick up some speed! I believe this head on collision would be another example of a negative torque being applied to a positive torque. Is the head on collision causing the object to pick up speed an example of a kinetic chain snap or is the car just stopping and the object maintaining its speed the correct example? Are they both examples of kinetic chains? I don't know. Perhaps someone can help me because I'm getting quite confused about this whole kinetic chain thing.

I usually find out from more educated sources that I'm about half right or half wrong when I verbalize my latest theories about what happens or should happen concerning the physics of good golfswings so please take the following words with a grain of salt:

I generally believe that the legs are the engine of the golf swing and the arms, hands, and club are the muscular transmission system that forcibly harnesses and redirects the engine's energy into the ball. Basically the legs push into the ground for a fraction of a second with more weight pressure than the golfer actually weighs. The ground then pushes the same amount of energy back up through the feet and into the golfer. The golfer then - a fraction of a second after the push - sets or readies his on plane harness of geometrically advantaged arms, hands, and club to then muscularly unleash that groundforce into the ball. The body has just become a very brief but instantaneous conduit of energy from the ground up through the body and out of the upper extremities. Even the hands muscularly unhinge to redirect this energy into the ball. The hands unhinge at about the same time as the bent right arm unhinges but because they unhinge faster than the bent right arm they unleash their energy to propel the club before impact leaving the slower right arm to keep up the propulsion of the whole system through the ball. Of course the hands need to unhinge in an effective way for this to occur. Homer Kelley describes a very good way for the hands to unhinge. The torso complements the golfer's desire to unharness this energy to and through the ball by turning enough so the golfer can do it well. The torso in this way then adds energy to the inside of the upper left arm to help things along as well. The whole groundforce energy production, harnessing, delivering, and releasing is carried out by muscles. Once the swing is over, the whole batch of that initial groundforce energy has been seamlessy unleashed out of the extremities and the only muscular energy the golfer has left over is that which keeps him upright and at ease.

I know other forces - chiefly centripetal - are at work to make the swing divert into a circular or elliptical motion, but the causative force to move a clubhead to strike a golf ball well is muscular. I only hope I'm at least half right.

Brian, I really enjoy the opportunity to debate and hopefully not argue about the greatest game of them all. Keep being a pioneer and I'll remain a trustworthy ally and supporter. Thanks and go Gators and Tigers over the Bulldogs, and go Tigers and Gators on to the SEC championship game! What the hell, go any SEC team on to win the BCS championship so somebody can try to knock them off next year!



As to your
 
Another area I'm confused about is your example of some loose object on your dashboard picking up speed when your car slows or stops. I always thought that if a car going 60mph suddenly stopped, then that object on the dashboard would just keep going the same 60mph it was going before the car stopped. The object can't pick up speed unless something like another car collides head on with the 60mph car. If the other car is going 50 mph you'd really see that dashboard object pick up some speed! I believe this head on collision would be another example of a negative torque being applied to a positive torque. Is the head on collision causing the object to pick up speed an example of a kinetic chain snap or is the car just stopping and the object maintaining its speed the correct example? Are they both examples of kinetic chains? I don't know. Perhaps someone can help me because I'm getting quite confused about this whole kinetic chain thing.

The "dashboard" example is more like a "feel" than a "real." While not completely correct, it does help people understand the idea rather quickly. This leads to less head-scratching and more time for fixin'.
 
NOW! To the business at hand. Quit obfuscating and redeem yourself. I read that weazlelike post of yours. You still need to explain yourself using the language of mathematics where this "elusive" power source that is the "kinetic chain" resides. Dr. Zick and I both want to know not to mention Cochran and Stobbs and the ghost of Ted Jorgensen.
Please, don't associate yourself with these people, that is not fair for these gentlemen, being real scientists. They have absolutely nothing in common with someone like you who does not contribute anything to anything other than being a fatiguing random noise source.

I realize that with pencil and paper working on high school level one can't do very much. You just have to wait till a real scientist operating at a level not quite accessible to you, figures it all out for you and simplifies it enough to make it hopefully accessible to your high school level of comprehension.

In the mean time try to find someone who in simple terms can explain to you the very basic ideas of Multibody Dynamics. If you had been a descent chap I would have done it myself but seeing your darned ugly character I lost all enthusiasm for doing so.

As a precaution I have saved this thread and hence all your posts in them, since it is always possible that someone knowledgable notifies you being wrong. Since it is really fun to eventually group all your remarks together and toggle a little razor blade through them all, I am concerned that you might just delete posts as you have done before.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
I had to go back and edit the heck out of this thread.

Sorry for you guys who didn't get the notice, the Kinetic Chain exists, and if you can SNAP IT, you hit it further.
 
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