Illustration of kinetic chain

[coophitter]

Incorrect questions?

If Coop found someone who HE THOUGHT did what he just said, he would find out quickly that when measured they did what I SAID.

I understand how people react to the TRUTH when it is a paradigm buster, just like the 11° inside-out crowd.

Dr. Zick probably wasn't asked the question correctly, btw.

Brian, the only time I can presently think of that a person can ask incorrect questions is during "Jeopardy", a game of 20 questions, or the like. Dr. Zick may have misunderstood my question, but I don't believe he did. I may have misunderstood his answer, but I don't think I did.

I have asked him two questions in my life. The first question I asked him was immediately after a presentation he made to Authorized Instructors of The Golfing Machine at the 2006 GM summit, and it concerned whether muscular, centripetal, or centrifugal force (or a combination thereof) caused the unhinging of the right forearm about its elbow joint and both hands about their wrist joints during a mechanically advantaged golf downswing. I vividly recall that his answer to me and the other attendees was extremely prejudiced towards "muscular". I also remember the room being quite quiet after his answer.

The second question I asked him in private, immediately after he spoke to attendees at the 2007 GM summit. As I've already mentioned in my earlier post, he told me that decelerating, stopping, or reversing larger more proximal body segments to create a resultant "snap" in smaller more distal body segments was unadvisable in golf swings.

I've recently researched "kinetic chains" and they seem to exist in all human movements from typing, to discus throwing, to bench pressing a barbell. It seems that they can be defined as being "open" kinetic chain movements, "closed" kinetic chain movements, or exhibiting properties of both.

An "open" kinetic chain describes a movement whereby a human exerts a force against an object and causes that object to move. A "closed" kinetic chain describes a movement wherein a human exerts a force against an object and the object doesn't move but the human moves as a result. A bench press or a typed typewriter key is an "open" kinetic chain activity while a push up or squat is a "closed" kinetic chain activity. Many movements like a basketball jump shot describe both "open" and "closed" kinetic chains happening within the same activity. I have yet to find a definition for "snapping" a kinetic chain (open, closed, or mixed) in any media offering other than recent descriptions of how you can do so in a golf swing.

I remain very confused, but I think that the fellow who mentioned the ice skater example to describe how extending arms, hands, and club away from a center of rotation will slow that center down prior to impact is very bright; I wish he would write more on this kinetic chain subject. I also think that the fellow who said that more force to move the downswing should come from the arms compared to the pivot is very bright; I wish he would write more about that subject, especially since he didn't mention what the hands might do to force the whole club to move.

I have more questions to ask about kinetic chains and golfswings especially concerning the legs pushing into the ground prior to downswing force transmission and the downswing timing sequence of hand force vs. right arm force vs pivot force. My only question now, however, is: What is the definition of an kinetic chain "snap" versus a typical "open", "closed", or "mixed" kinetic chain activity?

 

[Brian Manzella]

If you help me help you, you'll help me help others.

I remain very confused...

Coop,

Just stick around a pay attention.

I promise I'll get you to understand.


First, help ME help YOU by answering the following questions, true or false:

1. Do you believe that the hips and shoulders continue through impact at a constant speed?

2. Do the hip and shoulders pull the "power package" to the finish?

3. Do the arms and hands move first on the downswing?

4. Do you believe that a "centered pivot" can produce as much power as one where the foler gets way "behind the ball"?

5. Have you ever hit ball experimenting on a good 3D machine?
​

 

[jaridyard]

Brian, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the cause of slowing segments, whether you believe the phenomenon to be conscious (which I feel you've alluded to) and if so teachable?

I just couldn't imagine encouraging a player to slow the core when it's usually a battle to teach correct sequencing and acceleration, never mind deceleration.

With reference to the original post (hard to remember it after all the 'handbags' seen throughout this thread), it's long been recognised that all sporting motions have a sequence, usually proximal to distal in elite performers.
The snapping however I have an issue with, it's known that when a distal segment accelerates the proximal segment slows, why however is unclear. Putnam suggests that deceleration happens after peak velocity of a segment has been achieved and the transfer of that peak energy has occurred. Marshall & Wood showed a reversal of joint torques late in the movement that served to increase distal velocity.
So we can agree proximal slows as distal accelerates. The 'why' needs an answer before we talk of snapping/deliberately slowing segments. The possible reasons I can think of are:
1) Full range of motion of proximal segment is reached or approached and slowing is inevitable. Stretch-Shortening cycle.
2) The characteristics of the system change, for example, a golfer releases the club early increasing the distance from the centre of rotation to the clubhead slowing the velocity of the centre. Think ice skater spinning.
3) An innate ability of elite performers to co-ordinate the transfer of momentum by firing/un-firing muscle groups in perfect sequence.

I bet there are many more reasons possible, one thing I'm sure of however is that in Mandrins model whether correct or not, the proximal segments acting solely under gravitational pull cannot be actively exerting any reverse torque on the joints!

 

[mandrin]

I have asked him two questions in my life. The first question I asked him .... concerned whether muscular, centripetal, or centrifugal force (or a combination thereof) caused the unhinging of the right forearm about its elbow joint and both hands about their wrist joints during a mechanically advantaged golf downswing. I vividly recall that his answer to me and the other attendees was extremely prejudiced towards "muscular".

The unhinging of the wrists is not caused by a centrifugal force acting on the clubhead, as commonly assumed, but produced by the linear forces acting on the grip end of the club. The unhinging of the trail elbow is due to both inertial forces and contracting muscles forces, but more muscular for a hitter.

The second question I asked him in private, immediately after he spoke to attendees at the 2007 GM summit. As I've already mentioned in my earlier post, he told me that decelerating, stopping, or reversing larger more proximal body segments to create a resultant "snap" in smaller more distal body segments was unadvisable in golf swings.

In a kinetic chain when starting from the core there will be automatically sequentially deceleration of the various segments of the chain. The question is hence not if or not it occurs but if some deliberate action to emphasize it is beneficial or detrimental.

I remain very confused, but I think that the fellow who mentioned the ice skater example to describe how extending arms, hands, and club away from a center of rotation will slow that center down prior to impact is very bright; I wish he would write more on this kinetic chain subject.

Using the image of the skater extending his arms as an analogy for a golfer's swing is not quite appropriate. A skater when rotating is essentially a closed system, hence conserving energy and momentum. A golfer's down swing, starting from 'zero', is essentially generating energy/momentum.

I also think that the fellow who said that more force to move the downswing should come from the arms compared to the pivot is very bright; I wish he would write more about that subject, especially since he didn't mention what the hands might do to force the whole club to move.

This reflects the ongoing debate if power should originate primarily from the arms or the body. However someone having all his various body parts participate actively assures that they all participate at the lowest possible level of effort. This favors both power and precision as well as an enduring swing over time.

 

[coophitter]

Coop,

Just stick around a pay attention.

I promise I'll get you to understand.


First, help ME help YOU by answering the following questions, true or false:

1. Do you believe that the hips and shoulders continue through impact at a constant speed?

2. Do the hip and shoulders pull the "power package" to the finish?

3. Do the arms and hands move first on the downswing?

4. Do you believe that a "centered pivot" can produce as much power as one where the foler gets way "behind the ball"?

5. Have you ever hit ball experimenting on a good 3D machine?
​

These questions require "yes", "no", "I don't know", "I think so", "I don't think so", "I don't understand the question" type of answers vs. "true" or "false" answers:

1. No.
2. I don't think so.
3. I don't know, but I might offer an educated reply if you told me when the backswing in question ends.
4. I don't understand the question.
5. I've tried the K-Vest, but I don't know if it was a good or bad 3D machine when I did.

I will elaborate on #1, #2, in time as I'm pretty sure I understand the gist of these questions. I think they are difficult to answer so it could be a while before I get back to you. Perhaps you could make #3,#4, and#5 a bit clearer before I respond so I can offer better responses to all of your questions. Thanks

 

[Guitar Hero]

1. Do you believe that the hips and shoulders continue through impact at a constant speed?

2. Do the hip and shoulders pull the "power package" to the finish?

3. Do the arms and hands move first on the downswing?

4. Do you believe that a "centered pivot" can produce as much power as one where the foler gets way "behind the ball"?

5. Have you ever hit ball experimenting on a good 3D machine?



1. NO

2. NO

3. Hitting (YES) Swinging (NO) They can also start at the same time.

4. NO

5. YES

 

[mb6606]

Kinetic chain is a given but where do we draw the line between kinetic chain and accuracy?
How much of a mis-hit negates any gains in the kitnetic chain?
Even the long drive guys need some accuracy and centered contact to win.
I could wind up like a baseball pitcher and hit the ball 10-20 yds further but will it lower my scores? Difficult questions that need research/answers by the 3D people.

 

[jake2]

The second question I asked him in private, immediately after he spoke to attendees at the 2007 GM summit. As I've already mentioned in my earlier post, he told me that decelerating, stopping, or reversing larger more proximal body segments to create a resultant "snap" in smaller more distal body segments was unadvisable in golf swings.

I mentioned earlier that the term snap is misleading in my opinion, because to me it refers to something happening very fast or suddenly. The term must be referring to club release, which is quite sudden especially for people with maximum trigger delay or snap release. Some people can hit the ball long ways with more of sweep release (club starts to release much earlier in the downswing), indicating that there is more to efficient kinematic sequencing that how quickly the energy and momentum transfer happens from one segment to next one.

Still additional note:
When you hit a short pitch pretty much with your pivot only (something I've learned to do recently), it feels like there is a kind of a snap as left leg pushes off the ground and hips reach a limit of rotation. But this is a feel and the hips don't necessarily stop before impact.

The kinematic sequence measurements of rotational speeds I have seen show relatively smooth rates of first acceleration and then deceleration prior to impact in the hips, shoulders and arms. Each subsequent segment from hips to the club operates faster that the previous one and then comes the from the club itself by far the fastest.

You can see that when a previous segment starts to slow down, next segment starts to accelerate more. What causes this to happen is the puzzling part.

Like Tiger was getting more distance by snapping his left leg straight.
- Does it work because it slows down hips causing shoulders to accelerate more?
- Or does it work because that work adds additional kinetic energy to the hips that is then transferred to the shoulders and arms through kinematic sequencing?
- Or is the upward acceleration that is directly affecting the whole left side of the body, thus pulling also hands upward, the key?

Anyway that leg does additional work that can add kinetic energy to the system (if it's not taking it away by working against the velocity). That energy can potentially be transferred to generate more clubhead velocity.

I have more questions to ask about kinetic chains and golfswings especially concerning the legs pushing into the ground prior to downswing force transmission and the downswing timing sequence of hand force vs. right arm force vs pivot force. My only question now, however, is: What is the definition of an kinetic chain "snap" versus a typical "open", "closed", or "mixed" kinetic chain activity?

Isn't it obvious that the only "closed" part of the of golf kinematic sequencing is done by the legs moving the hips (rotating and up/down). Everything else is open. And this has nothing to do whether you "snap" it or not.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Kinetic chain is a given but where do we draw the line between kinetic chain and accuracy?
How much of a mis-hit negates any gains in the kitnetic chain?
Even the long drive guys need some accuracy and centered contact to win.
I could wind up like a baseball pitcher and hit the ball 10-20 yds further but will it lower my scores? Difficult questions that need research/answers by the 3D people.

You ever play a modern PGA Tournament course?

I played Valhalla this past summer from 7,600 par 71.

I played—for me—really good. I shot 83.

This 83, on the 7,000 Old City Park West Course that I grew up on would be 70 or 71, hell it'd been 76 or 77 at PEBBLE BEACH.

The folks who are TGM-book literalist out there, they are STILL trying to sell the idea that Homer Kelly knew EVERYTHING about the swing.

The Kinetic Chain, The D-Plane, etc, makes them very nervous. They have to come up with something....so they say: "The Snapping of the Kinetic Chain won't be accurate."

I say: " BULL$#!+"

You wouldn't want to know how well Hogan or Snead snapped their chain.

The day is coming that I am going to use a REALLY HIGH END 3D machine, and trackman, and I am going to QUANTIFY EVERYTHING I teach.

They won't.

The day of reckoning (truth) is coming, and I'll be the happiest guy in the room.

Learn to PIVOT DYNAMICALLY and play better golf, and IMPROVE EVERYDAY!!!!!

 

[Brian Manzella]

I mentioned earlier that the term snap is misleading in my opinion....this has nothing to do whether you "snap" it or not.

The are so many misleading things in this post that I need to take an aspirin before I answer it.

 

[jake2]

The are so many misleading things in this post that I need to take an aspirin before I answer it.

Understanding terminology differently can be a major source of confusion, especially when there are not universally accepted uses for those terms.

Take for example snapping the kinetic chain and using sweep release.
Efficient use of kinetic chain or efficient kinematic sequencing would just sound much better to me than snapping it.
Still I think I know what is meant.

It's interesting that someone might think that you have an option using or not using kinetic chain (or kinematic sequencing) in golf swing, when it's the essence of the whole process.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Understanding terminology differently can be a major source of confusion, especially when there are not universally accepted uses for those terms.

Take for example snapping the kinetic chain and using sweep release.
Efficient use of kinetic chain or efficient kinematic sequencing would just sound much better to me than snapping it.
Still I think I know what is meant.

It's interesting that someone might think that you have an option using or not using kinetic chain (or kinematic sequencing) in golf swing, when it's the essence of the whole process.

That's a misleading post as well....

I need to MANZELLA-ize you.

 

[mb6606]

The day is coming that I am going to use a REALLY HIGH END 3D machine, and trackman, and I am going to QUANTIFY EVERYTHING I teach.

Been hanging around here since the beginning and this is what I am patiently waiting for!

 

[mandrin]

velocity multiplication

To directly visually show the effect of the velocity multiplication with a kinetic chain for the same energy input I have put together a comparison for the 8 segment kinetic chain with either free or frozen joints between segments.

 

[jake2]

Brian Manzella
The day is coming that I am going to use a REALLY HIGH END 3D machine, and trackman, and I am going to QUANTIFY EVERYTHING I teach.

Been hanging around here since the beginning and this is what I am patiently waiting for!

I sounds like 3D-machines and Trackman are producing a lot of data and there are studies are going on in various parts of the world. There just isn't much new information publicly available (yet), so I guess the majority of us are just going to have to wait.

 

[coophitter]

Jake2 is winning this debate.

That's a misleading post as well....

I need to MANZELLA-ize you.

Brian, if you are debating that Jake2's comments in his last two posts are misleading, you should point out which of his comments are misleading, why they are misleading, and why your counterpoints are not misleading. So far Jake2 is trouncing you in this particular debate as you have not defined his misleading points much less offered any counterpoints. You've only labeled something or everything in his posts as being misleading rather than erroneous or flawed. Are you waiting for 3D machines and trackman findings to back up your claims that Jake2 is somehow misleading us in areas that you've yet to pinpoint?

There's an axiom concerning civil debate that if you can't argue the law, argue the facts and if you can't argue the facts, argue the law, and if you can't argue the law or the facts, attack the veracity or credibility of your opponent's argument. If you choose the last of these choices, you will usually lose the debate unless you can produce convincing evidence that your opponent is not correct, not entirely correct, or not to be believed.

Particular words have extremely particular meanings if a particular audience fully understands the context of those words. If all human movements can be described in terms of varying types, degrees, or manifestations of "kinetic chains", then what differentiates a "kinetic chain snap" from a "kinetic chain" that doesn't snap? Or do all kinetic chains snap and differences can be noted in terms of size, speed, efficiency, etc. For example, is Tiger's typical chipping stroke an example of a "kinetic chain snap"? and, if so, how would it compare to the "kinetic chain snap" of his typical driver swing?

I'm sticking around, yet I'm getting even more confused about snapping anything except my fingers.

 

[TYORKE1]

I would find these posts much easier to understand if there were actual golf swing illustrations diagrams don't do it for me, I do appreciate the effort, TIM

 

[Brian Manzella]

Round 1

I mentioned earlier that the term snap is misleading in my opinion, because to me it refers to something happening very fast or suddenly. The term must be referring to club release, which is quite sudden especially for people with maximum trigger delay or snap release. Some people can hit the ball long ways with more of sweep release (club starts to release much earlier in the downswing), indicating that there is more to efficient kinematic sequencing that how quickly the energy and momentum transfer happens from one segment to next one.

Ah....nope.

Goo try though.

Snap is a PERFECT term because the that's what we call it when we are talking about the club and left arm segments.

So, when the left arm and shaft is out of line until very late in the downswing, and then releases SUDDENLY, we call it snap.

When any of the other segments—or all or them—of the pivot are out of line until the latest possible time in the downswing, and then "releases" or becomes in line, we (around here) call it snap.

Now, as for the folks—like Lindsay Gahm—who can hit the ball long way with a sweep release, ALL IT PROVES IS THAT SHE GETS HER SPEED FROM THE OTHER SEGMENTS OF THE PIVOT.

Which, in diametric opposition to your assertion, indicates that efficient kinematic sequencing of the PIVOT can "make up for" the lack of POTENTIAL SPEED in a "sweepy" release.

When you hit a short pitch pretty much with your pivot only (something I've learned to do recently), it feels like there is a kind of a snap as left leg pushes off the ground and hips reach a limit of rotation. But this is a feel and the hips don't necessarily stop before impact.

You can create a "soft" impact by NOT snapping the chain on a pitch shot.

But I promise you, the KINETIC snap is there for a Ben Doyle-like "short as possible—hard as possible" pitch.

You can see that when a previous segment starts to slow down, next segment starts to accelerate more. What causes this to happen is the puzzling part.

Speak for yourself.

I starting figuring out this "pivot snapping" quite a long time ago.

My compatriot Mike Finney bought stock in BioVison, the 1st 3D company, back in 1990. We got all sort of goodies from them, including some 3D's of famous players.

The SNAPPING was obvious then, as it is now.

We use to video ourselves throwing clubs and trying to prove (or disprove) my theory that the PIVOT DID NOT pull the club to the finish.

It doesn't.

But, to help you understand one of the things that helps with this snap is PIVOTING EFFECTIVELY.

Most of my Pivot Theories are turning out to be dead on.

Like Tiger was getting more distance by snapping his left leg straight.

Tigers knees snaps AFTER IMPACT.

Look at some high-speed video.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I sounds like 3D-machines and Trackman are producing a lot of data and there are studies are going on in various parts of the world. There just isn't much new information publicly available (yet), so I guess the majority of us are just going to have to wait.

Why do you think I am the only person alive who has PERFECT ATTENDANCE at the PGA Teaching and Coaching Summits, the TGM Summits, The MIT Summits, and the AMF Summits???

To be ahead of the curve, and successfully debate my findings.

When I lose—and I do lose—it is usually to a PHD like Mandrin.

 

[Brian Manzella]

It's interesting that someone might think that you have an option using or not using kinetic chain (or kinematic sequencing) in golf swing, when it's the essence of the whole process.

You can have a VERY SOFT, SLOW Kinetic Chain release.

Get it??

Look at Mandrin's comparison schematic.