Improving lie

[hp12c]

Im watching the LPGA playoff and to me it appeared as if Suzanne improved her lie by patting down the grass behind the ball. They showed her ball when it landed in the rough behind the green and the ball was sitting down. This is what I saw she placed her iron behind the ball with only her right hand ont the club which pushed the grass behind the ball down, she then picked up the club and took some practice swings to the side, she then placed the iron behind the ball again and pushed the grass down again, I think she did a total of 4 times. Is this not improving you lie and is this not a rules violation?

 

[Chiefbullmarket]

Here is the way I understand the rule. She is ok if it is just the weight of the club pushing the grass down. But, if she was pushing down on the club then that would be a penalty.

 

[hp12c]

Here is the way I understand the rule. She is ok if it is just the weight of the club pushing the grass down. But, if she was pushing down on the club then that would be a penalty.

From what I saw she did both, she laid the club down behind the ball 1st and before she took her practice strokes away from the ball she pushed down on the club a few times. I could see the ball much better after she did this, thats why it seems like a violation.

 

[DCgolf]

Rule 13 states the club may be grounded but only lightly. The general ruling is no more weight than one would in playing the shot. Very vague area. Always has been.

 

[hp12c]

Rule 13 states the club may be grounded but only lightly. The general ruling is no more weight than one would in playing the shot. Very vague area. Always has been.

I was just reading this rule and there are some interesting things.
A player must not improve or allow to be improved:
· the position or lie of his ball,
· the area of his intended stance or swing,
· his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or
· the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,
by any of the following actions:
· pressing a club on the ground,
· moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds),
· creating or eliminating irregularities of surface,
· removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or
· removing dew, frost or water.
now the second part,
However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:
· in grounding the club lightly when addressing the ball,
· in fairly taking his stance,
· in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a stroke and the stroke is made,
· in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the teeing ground (Rule 11-1) or in removing dew, frost or water from the teeing ground, or
· on the putting green in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing damage (Rule 16-1).

If she would have taken her stance and placed her club behind the ball with both hands as in addressing the ball and this this several times ok, but she did not do this, she started to address the ball with just her right hand on the club sorta took a stance but she didnt place her left hand on the club and she did pat down the grass with her club. Thats improving your lie.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Its a very fine line

 

[welshdentist]

And not like some players do walking to the ball in rough with their driver, setting up as if they will hit driver, only to then hit their 7 iron (happens on tour unfortunately, I know a tournament director who's told me names and instances)

 

[hp12c]

And not like some players do walking to the ball in rough with their driver, setting up as if they will hit driver, only to then hit their 7 iron (happens on tour unfortunately, I know a tournament director who's told me names and instances)

Are you serious! come on to put a driver behind the ball in the rough and then hit an iron thats wrong. Lets say the shot is 150yds and this happens, could the player honestly say he or she was really intending to hit driver from the rough but then changed to an iron? I read somewhere about Gary Player doing that and Tom Watson calling him out on it and called him a cheater.

 

[hp12c]

Its a very fine line

I recorded the tournament ans watched that play a few times. She tamps down the grass behind her ball several times. Fine line more like no line. Did watch the tornament?

 

[fronesis]

I agree with Kevin that it's a fine line, but it also seems, from my perspective, that it is a line that has been crossed in golf some time in the last 10 years. I really do not think you saw this sort of thing as much ten or twenty years ago, and it seems to me that what we now talk abut as "grey" used to be much more black/white. This came up over a Kenny Perry "incident" a couple of years back. It seems like no one wants to call players on this, so they've started to do it frequently.

When I was taught the rules of golf in the early 80s and as they were interpreted when I played high school golf back then, this sort of thing would have been a clear violation. Your lie has IMPROVED and you werre responsible for improving it in a way that was not "normal" play. But you just don't see penalties called.

Remember Nicklaus NEVER grounded his club, partially because of the worry that he would "accidentally" improve his lie. No one seems to be worried about that now.

 

[hp12c]

I agree with Kevin that it's a fine line, but it also seems, from my perspective, that it is a line that has been crossed in golf some time in the last 10 years. I really do not think you saw this sort of thing as much ten or twenty years ago, and it seems to me that what we now talk abut as "grey" used to be much more black/white. This came up over a Kenny Perry "incident" a couple of years back. It seems like no one wants to call players on this, so they've started to do it frequently.

When I was taught the rules of golf in the early 80s and as they were interpreted when I played high school golf back then, this sort of thing would have been a clear violation. Your lie has IMPROVED and you werre responsible for improving it in a way that was not "normal" play. But you just don't see penalties called.

Remember Nicklaus NEVER grounded his club, partially because of the worry that he would "accidentally" improve his lie. No one seems to be worried about that now.

As a player I was taught not ot ground my club behind the ball in the rough untill I was ready to strike the ball, if times have changed to what I saw yesterday and no penalty is called seems a change in the interpretation of the rules has occurred and I want to do it but my conscience is telling me no!.

 

[hp12c]

Its a very fine line

Ok Kevin Im gonna ask you straight up. I know you have played in some tournaments have you done similar to what Suzanne did?

 

[DCgolf]

As a player I was taught not ot ground my club behind the ball in the rough untill I was ready to strike the ball, if times have changed to what I saw yesterday and no penalty is called seems a change in the interpretation of the rules has occurred and I want to do it but my conscience is telling me no!.

I've been a rules official on and off for 20 years. I have seen it, rarely, but I have seen it, and I have never called anyone on it. The spirit of the law is often at odds with the letter of the law, and I for one would like us to get back to the spirit, the self policing aspect, of the law. INTENT has a lot to do with, we seem to have gotten away from the intent to the structuralist interpretation. I HAVE done it and never to improve my lie. I did it for the same reason I would do it in any bad lie; to see how high or low it is sitting. No harm no foul.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I recorded the tournament ans watched that play a few times. She tamps down the grass behind her ball several times. Fine line more like no line. Did watch the tornament?

I try not to watch women's golf if I can help it.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Ok Kevin Im gonna ask you straight up. I know you have played in some tournaments have you done similar to what Suzanne did?

Like I said, I didn't see it but I've absolutely tapped down behind a ball in the rough. I dont think Ive ever played with someone who didn't.

 

[tbone1065]

Wasn't Gary Player known for doing this? I think the story is that Tom Watson got in his face and told him to cut the sh&t!

 

[hp12c]

Like I said, I didn't see it but I've absolutely tapped down behind a ball in the rough. I dont think Ive ever played with someone who didn't.

Thank you for the response Kevin, if its allowed then I as taugh wrong and or the interpretation of the rule has changed, which is fine by me.

 

[hp12c]

Wasn't Gary Player known for doing this? I think the story is that Tom Watson got in his face and told him to cut the sh&t!

Yeah I read somewhere about that too.

 

[hp12c]

I've been a rules official on and off for 20 years. I have seen it, rarely, but I have seen it, and I have never called anyone on it. The spirit of the law is often at odds with the letter of the law, and I for one would like us to get back to the spirit, the self policing aspect, of the law. INTENT has a lot to do with, we seem to have gotten away from the intent to the structuralist interpretation. I HAVE done it and never to improve my lie. I did it for the same reason I would do it in any bad lie; to see how high or low it is sitting. No harm no foul.

I see what you mean, the testting part how low in the rough tha ball is sitting, I've not done that for the reason is it might improve my lie. Golfers heck people in general if given an inch will take a mile. Maybe Im reading too much into these rules, like Kevin said a fine line.

 

[hp12c]

I try not to watch women's golf if I can help it.

I watch to learn course strategy, Im kinda short hitter and I've learned a lot by watching them. Dont get me wrong if I could bomb my drive and just wedge it on nice but Im not that guy, also playing with a mature golfer has helped me too.