Interesting Trackman Data

[Kevin Shields]

here are three swings with a 7 iron from one of my better students. Just finished top 15 in the Big Ten Championship. Likes to play a tiny draw. I found it interesting how good players seem to find a way to make things consistent. All three of these shots looked indentical.....but

Horizontal swing plane 0.5 1.9 0.3
Vertical swing plane 55.3 61.2 55.0
Attack Angle -4.3 -3.0 -4.8

TRUE PATH 3.5 3.5 3.5

So he swings a little right, hits moderately down and gets his path to be the same with completely different numbers. I find this really amazing. Ive seen myself do this as well. I'll swing a little more left and more down and get the same path as I did when i was working away from that. So whats a player to do?

Any thoughts?

 

[ggsjpc]

Questions?

here are three swings with a 7 iron from one of my better students. Just finished top 15 in the Big Ten Championship. Likes to play a tiny draw. I found it interesting how good players seem to find a way to make things consistent. All three of these shots looked indentical.....but

Horizontal swing plane 0.5 1.9 0.3
Vertical swing plane 55.3 61.2 55.0
Attack Angle -4.3 -3.0 -4.8

TRUE PATH 3.5 3.5 3.5

So he swings a little right, hits moderately down and gets his path to be the same with completely different numbers. I find this really amazing. Ive seen myself do this as well. I'll swing a little more left and more down and get the same path as I did when i was working away from that. So whats a player to do?

Any thoughts?

I'm assuming there is a belief that the horizontal swing plane has a direct relationship to angle of attack somewhat offsetting the variance from swing to swing.

What I can't wrap my head around is why a more right path would have a more vertical shaft angle. This seems counter intuitive.

Is it fair to say that with with really good players, it's more important what numbers their bad shots have than there good?

 

[Damon Lucas]

Any trajectory differences between the shots, Kevin?

 

[Zztop]

here are three swings with a 7 iron from one of my better students. Just finished top 15 in the Big Ten Championship. Likes to play a tiny draw. I found it interesting how good players seem to find a way to make things consistent. All three of these shots looked indentical.....but

Horizontal swing plane 0.5 1.9 0.3
Vertical swing plane 55.3 61.2 55.0
Attack Angle -4.3 -3.0 -4.8

TRUE PATH 3.5 3.5 3.5

So he swings a little right, hits moderately down and gets his path to be the same with completely different numbers. I find this really amazing. Ive seen myself do this as well. I'll swing a little more left and more down and get the same path as I did when i was working away from that. So whats a player to do?

Any thoughts?

that's because people aren't machines and there's always going to be slight variances in swings we are not perfect, accept that fact, no one can swing a golf club and expect to have these numbers be the same all the time it's futile and counter productive. if you can hit the same shot more or less, what's numbers from a machine or computer mean? like they say stats. are for losers. your chasing something that no human can repeat and if you need proof think of all the old time pro teachers i.e. harvey pennick etc. how did they ever manage to teach without all this trackman data? and if you go out and shoot a 66 do you really care if the numbers from trackman don't add up?
like david toms said, i bet it looks good on video huh! where do you go after you can't get students to put up these numbers on a computer but they still hit quality shots, is the tool your using for their benefit or your benefit,is the tool really all that, geez next we'll have robots teaching us, or worse we'll start to worry about: is centrifugal force really a force wake up people we are humans not iron byrons we make mistakes, that's why we have 14 clubs in our golfbags not just one club, have a nice day with your new found knowledge

 

[savydan]

I think the point is that the trail and error portion can be reduced if the truth about impact dynamics is understood.

 

[Zztop]

I think the point is that the trail and error portion can be reduced if the truth about impact dynamics is understood.

that doesn't explain if a person is hitting quality shots most of the time like in kevin's example what's the point of worrying that the #'s aren't the same it, might be fun for the person with the computer but that's about it. show a new student this data and they'll just look at it like a deer caught in a cars headlights. all they want is show me how to hit good shots they don't really need all the computer data especially if it isn't always the same. plus we all have our own little computer in that space between our ears sometimes less is more! are you teaching them to interpet data or to golf their ball?

 

[vjsinger]

Kevin is a teacher for a living, this is why he is trying to understand the data, so he may better communicate with the student..get it now?

 

[Zztop]

Kevin is a teacher for a living, this is why he is trying to understand the data, so he may better communicate with the student..get it now?

if you read his quote, he is asking why are the #'s from trackman are all different but the student is still hitting quality shots that all appear to be the same. in other words, does not compute! how does that help kevin communicate with the student if he can't interpret the data. so before using this teaching aid it helps to be able to know the data inside out get it now! and like i said why worry about #'s if the student is hitting quality shot's, get that?

 

[Zztop]

swings are like snowflakes every one is just slightly different, even from the same person that's why the data from trackman is capturing different #'s. it's because we are human and not robot's.

 

[Steve Greffen]

if you read his quote, he is asking why are the #'s from trackman are all different but the student is still hitting quality shots that all appear to be the same. in other words, does not compute! how does that help kevin communicate with the student if he can't interpret the data. so before using this teaching aid it helps to be able to know the data inside out get it now! and like i said why worry about #'s if the student is hitting quality shot's, get that?

Just because you don't have an answer to his question doesn't mean you have to bash the Trackman concept. Stick to your 18th century concepts and let the future pass you by.

You don't even know what Kevin is asking so leave it alone.

 

[Zztop]

Just because you don't have an answer to his question doesn't mean you have to bash the Trackman concept. Stick to your 18th century concepts and let the future pass you by.

You don't even know what Kevin is asking so leave it alone.

i don't see your answer to his question. and i did answer his question, some people just can't accept reality and i don't believe being human and making errors is a 18th century concept it's part of what makes us who we are except for you of course because your the only perfect one among us.tell kevin how to decipher the trackman data and then i'll leave it alone. if you think the answers are in a computer for the golfswing then you'll be passed by. why do people struggle and struggle with all this so called great teaching , because in reality no one has the answers to everyone's swing, why are people always asking all these questions, why are there so many different answers to them? why haven't people's handicap improved in 80 years?
it's because if there's one thing people like you have proven ,is you don't have the answers ,you have already been passed by you just don't know it

 

[vjsinger]

if you read his quote, he is asking why are the #'s from trackman are all different but the student is still hitting quality shots that all appear to be the same. in other words, does not compute! how does that help kevin communicate with the student if he can't interpret the data. so before using this teaching aid it helps to be able to know the data inside out get it now! and like i said why worry about #'s if the student is hitting quality shot's, get that?

Agree with Bolt, you still don't get it...Why am I wasting my time reading your post? Why are you bashing the hosts instructors? Why am I even typi

 

[Zztop]

Agree with Bolt, you still don't get it...Why am I wasting my time reading your post? Why are you bashing the hosts instructors? Why am I even typi

i'm not bashing kevin i think of all the instructors on this forum he questions things the most, he doesn't just accept things because some so called expert says so, he is intelligently curious i like people like him, i just gave an answer that is not data specific but human specific, some of you don't get that. it's good to question these theories, happens all the time, i think brian even said that he likes to test, and investigate not just accept without question. some people have thin skin and take things personally myself included, when you feel attacked or a friend is seemingly attacked you naturally come to their defense. that's why you reply to my post it's the human condition, point proved! after all we are human not machines!

 

[ggsjpc]

zztop and the devils advocate

here are three swings with a 7 iron from one of my better students. Just finished top 15 in the Big Ten Championship. Likes to play a tiny draw. I found it interesting how good players seem to find a way to make things consistent. All three of these shots looked indentical.....but

Horizontal swing plane 0.5 1.9 0.3
Vertical swing plane 55.3 61.2 55.0
Attack Angle -4.3 -3.0 -4.8

TRUE PATH 3.5 3.5 3.5

So he swings a little right, hits moderately down and gets his path to be the same with completely different numbers. I find this really amazing. Ive seen myself do this as well. I'll swing a little more left and more down and get the same path as I did when i was working away from that. So whats a player to do?
Any thoughts?

ZZtop,

Personally, I read this bolded quote as sarcasm. I think Kevin already knows that there are infinite combinations that produce quality golf shots. We didn't need a computer to tell us that. Just look at any driving range and you'll see it. I think his question and this thread has to with
the benefit a teacher/player can have knowing that they don't have to or shouldn't necassrily try to do it exactly the same each time.

For me, I see this as a relief. Not a deterant(sp?)

Ignoring technology is just not wise. As with all technology, it is only as useful as the human operating and interpreting it.

I think HDCPS haven't improved because the people playing it don't know how to learn a motor skill well. Anyone that thinks that it looks so easy, I can do that, and has no golf athleticism is doomed.

I'd be willing to bet that if I went to the best sprinting teacher there is, I could only improve so much. I will never ever run as fast as some others or even close.

Golf is the exact same thing, in my opinion. Each person can only get so good. The ones with the ability to learn, feel and have golf athleticism will be the best.

 

[Zztop]

ZZtop,

Personally, I read this bolded quote as sarcasm. I think Kevin already knows that there are infinite combinations that produce quality golf shots. We didn't need a computer to tell us that. Just look at any driving range and you'll see it. I think his question and this thread has to with
the benefit a teacher/player can have knowing that they don't have to or shouldn't necassrily try to do it exactly the same each time.

For me, I see this as a relief. Not a deterant(sp?)

Ignoring technology is just not wise. As with all technology, it is only as useful as the human operating and interpreting it.

I think HDCPS haven't improved because the people playing it don't know how to learn a motor skill well. Anyone that thinks that it looks so easy, I can do that, and has no golf athleticism is doomed.

I'd be willing to bet that if I went to the best sprinting teacher there is, I could only improve so much. I will never ever run as fast as some others or even close.

Golf is the exact same thing, in my opinion. Each person can only get so good. The ones with the ability to learn, feel and have golf athleticism will be the best.

exactly my point we are human. and people learn very complicated motor skills all the time i.e. brain surgeons,playing musical instruments etc. but your right everyone has different abilities i have said this before in another post. i'm saying trackman is (a )tool not (the) tool!

 

[Steve Greffen]

i don't see your answer to his question. and i did answer his question, some people just can't accept reality and i don't believe being human and making errors is a 18th century concept it's part of what makes us who we are except for you of course because your the only perfect one among us.tell kevin how to decipher the trackman data and then i'll leave it alone. if you think the answers are in a computer for the golfswing then you'll be passed by. why do people struggle and struggle with all this so called great teaching , because in reality no one has the answers to everyone's swing, why are people always asking all these questions, why are there so many different answers to them? why haven't people's handicap improved in 80 years?
it's because if there's one thing people like you have proven ,is you don't have the answers ,you have already been passed by you just don't know it

I don't have an answer to his question that's why I didn't try to answer it with some blathering. I like gg's response though more respective of what Kevin was looking for. Different ways to get true path. Sorry you feel so strongly on your position and can't see the merit of information like this. Now let's both sit back and let this thread develop ok?

 

[ggsjpc]

exactly my point we are human. and people learn very complicated motor skills all the time i.e. brain surgeons,playing musical instruments etc. but your right everyone has different abilities i have said this before in another post. i'm saying trackman is (a )tool not (the) tool!

No tool is right for all jobs, but I know this information has helped me help players faster without having to teach them new things relative to their pattern.

 

[Zztop]

I don't have an answer to his question that's why I didn't try to answer it with some blathering. I like gg's response though more respective of what Kevin was looking for. Different ways to get true path. Sorry you feel so strongly on your position and can't see the merit of information like this. Now let's both sit back and let this thread develop ok?

the problem with trackman is the info is after the swing is made then what tell someone who hit a good shot that the data is different from another good shot they hit, so what then? tell them to change something to agree with the machine till the machine is happy but the golfer keeps changing, if you hit good shots who cares what the data says. if your on the course and hit a bad shot did you know it was coming? my point: your human it's going to happen no matter what, good player, bad player, it may help you teach but it won't eliminate bad shots. it comes down to your ability. that is a human trait believe it or not! there's some more blathering for you.

 

[curtisj76]

Make birdies, not war!

 

[Zztop]

Make birdies, not war!

yeah your right what was i thinking!