Interesting Trackman Data

[Jim Kobylinski]

I think some of you are coming down on Zztop too hard, he is playing an excellent devil's advocate and spuring debate.

 

[Zztop]

I think some of you are coming down on Zztop too hard, he is playing an excellent devil's advocate and spuring debate.

thanks jim i knew someone would eventually understand. now back to our normally scheduled program it was getting a bit boring

 

[vjsinger]

I do see the ways of the "top", but it was presented in a way that led me to believe he was bashing and discrediting Kevin(communicating over the internet problem), even though I read it and re-read the first couple of posts. I apologize, lover of terrible rock bands, Mr. ZZ....continue.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I'm assuming there is a belief that the horizontal swing plane has a direct relationship to angle of attack somewhat offsetting the variance from swing to swing.

What I can't wrap my head around is why a more right path would have a more vertical shaft angle. This seems counter intuitive.

Is it fair to say that with with really good players, it's more important what numbers their bad shots have than there good?

I agree 100%

 

[Kevin Shields]

Any trajectory differences between the shots, Kevin?

They were identical, Damon. At least to my eye.

 

[Kevin Shields]

that doesn't explain if a person is hitting quality shots most of the time like in kevin's example what's the point of worrying that the #'s aren't the same it, might be fun for the person with the computer but that's about it. show a new student this data and they'll just look at it like a deer caught in a cars headlights. all they want is show me how to hit good shots they don't really need all the computer data especially if it isn't always the same. plus we all have our own little computer in that space between our ears sometimes less is more! are you teaching them to interpet data or to golf their ball?

ZZ, who said I even showed these numbers to the student? Its interesting to teachers and those who want to learn. I know how to teach and when less is more.

 

[Kevin Shields]

if you read his quote, he is asking why are the #'s from trackman are all different but the student is still hitting quality shots that all appear to be the same. in other words, does not compute! how does that help kevin communicate with the student if he can't interpret the data. so before using this teaching aid it helps to be able to know the data inside out get it now! and like i said why worry about #'s if the student is hitting quality shot's, get that?

What makes you think I cant interpret the data? if you dont find it interesting, thats your perogative. It was just a topic for discussion. I know we are humans but with certain info you cant even imagine how good you can get. And yes, in a way it can prevent bad shots because you'll know for certain what NOT to do.

 

[Zztop]

I do see the ways of the "top", but it was presented in a way that led me to believe he was bashing and discrediting Kevin(communicating over the internet problem), even though I read it and re-read the first couple of posts. I apologize, lover of terrible rock bands, Mr. ZZ....continue.

i would never really bash kevin or any other credible instructor, or incredible instructor just being a s...t disturber for the day. someone has to do it, it was just my turn. i like the interaction of debate and then the really good stuff comes out.this forum rocks! zz.

 

[Zztop]

What makes you think I cant interpret the data? if you dont find it interesting, thats your perogative. It was just a topic for discussion. I know we are humans but with certain info you cant even imagine how good you can get. And yes, in a way it can prevent bad shots because you'll know for certain what NOT to do.

read post above. not asshole, to you mr. asshole. some people have thinner skin then i thought.

 

[Zztop]

What makes you think I cant interpret the data? if you dont find it interesting, thats your perogative. It was just a topic for discussion. I know we are humans but with certain info you cant even imagine how good you can get. And yes, in a way it can prevent bad shots because you'll know for certain what NOT to do.

knowing is one thing doing is another!

 

[Zztop]

see now were having a discussion, i do find it interesting, especially now that your involved and i do know how good someone can get, don't hold back ,tell me how you really feel, don't you love this game!

 

[Zztop]

you would make a fine representative for the pga tour. especially the way you keep your cool. calling people names that you haven't even met. i saw the (a hole remark) before you edited it, play nice, see you need a life lesson ,not a golf lesson. going around trashing people like fred couples who you say you love, with friends like that who needs, well you know. you may know about golf, but you got alot to learn about people! who is the real (a ..hole?)

 

[ggsjpc]

Been thinkin....

I agree 100%

Kevin,

I've been thinkin all day about the more vertical shaft angle on the right path. Is it possible that the extra right path leads to a posture change that elevates the hands to prevent the club from catching the shot fat?

My problem with that is it isn't really that much more right.

My next thought was that with a little more right path the face would have to be a little more open so could that be picked up as a more vertical plane because the face is more in line with the shaft from trackmans perspective?

Stumped....


Any ideas on your end?

 

[otto6457]

Question

OK.....

I'm a guy that likes to see numbers and I like to know where my numbers need to move towards in order to be as good as I can be.

Which brings me to my dilemma.

When a player steps into a Trackman and makes some swings, is there a target set of numbers that we know good players achieve? As a teacher, can you see the numbers output from a Trackman and know what needs to be done for a player to achieve the "target" numbers? Do the numbers dictate how you teach now?

I guess what I want to know is; does the Trackman make your teaching more accurate and easier, or does it add a level of complexity for the teacher to overcome?

And....if a player gets a Trackman lesson, does it make it more difficult to practice since you would be unable to see if you are moving your numbers towards a goal unless you are on a Trackman.

Also....will a Trackman lesson become the "gold standard" for instruction and will all top level teachers pretty much be required to become proficient teaching with the Trackman? Or is Trackman overkill for all but the very best ball strikers?

These may be the dumbest questions in the history of golf instruction....but then I may be the dumbest golfer in history.

 

[Zztop]

OK.....

I'm a guy that likes to see numbers and I like to know where my numbers need to move towards in order to be as good as I can be.

Which brings me to my dilemma.

When a player steps into a Trackman and makes some swings, is there a target set of numbers that we know good players achieve? As a teacher, can you see the numbers output from a Trackman and know what needs to be done for a player to achieve the "target" numbers? Do the numbers dictate how you teach now?

I guess what I want to know is; does the Trackman make your teaching more accurate and easier, or does it add a level of complexity for the teacher to overcome?

And....if a player gets a Trackman lesson, does it make it more difficult to practice since you would be unable to see if you are moving your numbers towards a goal unless you are on a Trackman.

Also....will a Trackman lesson become the "gold standard" for instruction and will all top level teachers pretty much be required to become proficient teaching with the Trackman? Or is Trackman overkill for all but the very best ball strikers?

These may be the dumbest questions in the history of golf instruction....but then I may be the dumbest golfer in history.

some of the smartest questions, not dumb, now all we need is the smartest answers: kevin? the stage is all yours

 

[Brian Manzella]

Don't you just love screennames? ...and Ginsu knives?

...people aren't machines and there's always going to be slight variances in swings we are not perfect...

Exactly.

Sort of.

You see, "Zz," without TrackMan, all you see is three "identical" shots.

But they weren't.

So now, we know, that this player has a "save move" when he gets a little under plane.

Maybe this will tell us what happens when he hits it right-to-right and makes 6 and loses a tournament.

Maybe, just maybe, there is a way to make him even better.

<B>

"There is always a better way." —Biagio Manzella
​

</B>

...accept that fact, no one can swing a golf club and expect to have these numbers be the same all the time it's futile and counter productive.

Baloney!

It is NOT a fact that this player can't get more consistent.

He IS getting better already due to working with TrackMan......and Kevin, of course.

...if you can hit the same shot more or less, what's numbers from a machine or computer mean?

If everyone thought that way all the time, we'd still be living in caves.

Goofy.

Listen, the numbers are IMPORTANT. And, it is obvious that they are a THREAT.

The truth is always a threat.

And always the path that leads to a better next step.

...like they say stats. are for losers.

Here are some stats for losers:

Go find two players who hit the ball very well on the range. Both have similar short games and hit the ball similar distances.

The one that can beat the other regularly will DESTROY the other on TrackMan.

...your chasing something that no human can repeat...

But you can get closer.

One day, TrackMan—or something like it, or better—will be used by 99% of every good player alive.

Trust me, I teach WAY BETTER knowing what TrackMan tells me.

Not even close.

...and if you need proof think of all the old time pro teachers i.e. harvey pennick etc. how did they ever manage to teach without all this trackman data?

They—and I—were flat out GUESSING.

And trust me, Harvey didn't help 'em all.

Neither do I.....but I get closer everyday.

and if you go out and shoot a 66 do you really care if the numbers from trackman don't add up?

If you shoot 66 in a legit tournament, your TrackMan numbers added up pretty good.

...like (someone) said, i bet it looks good on video huh!

Bad analogy.

It looked better on video BUT TRUST ME, IT WOULD HAVE LOOKED WAY WORSE ON TRACKMAN!!!!!!

...where do you go after you can't get students to put up these numbers on a computer but they still hit quality shots, is the tool your using for their benefit or your benefit, is the tool really all that (?)

Trust me, there are NO semi-repeating QUALITY SHOTS with BAD TrackMan numbers.

None.

...next we'll have robots teaching us

Can't be any worse than the field.

...have a nice day with your new found knowledge

Go pick up all the sliced pieces of yourself, and then ask your pieces this simple question:

What on earth made me say so many silly things?

 

[Brian Manzella]

that doesn't explain if a person is hitting quality shots most of the time like in kevin's example what's the point of worrying that the #'s aren't the same it, might be fun for the person with the computer but that's about it. show a new student this data and they'll just look at it like a deer caught in a cars headlights. all they want is show me how to hit good shots they don't really need all the computer data especially if it isn't always the same. plus we all have our own little computer in that space between our ears sometimes less is more! are you teaching them to interpet data or to golf their ball?

Somewhere, in Korea, there is a 12 year old hitting 600 balls a day using TrackMan.

And he is going to shoot in the mid-50's somewhere.

You watch.

 

[Brian Manzella]

if you read his quote, he is asking why are the #'s from trackman are all different but the student is still hitting quality shots that all appear to be the same. in other words, does not compute! how does that help kevin communicate with the student if he can't interpret the data. so before using this teaching aid it helps to be able to know the data inside out get it now! and like i said why worry about #'s if the student is hitting quality shot's, get that?

Because you see, YOU ARE JUST GUESSING OTHERWISE!!!!!

Look "Zz," if a golfer is hitting it solid but crooked, and is looking for a way to make it go where they are looking, the need to get TMed.

If they are hitting it good, they should get TMed even if they don't LOOK A THE NUMBERS, but just have them stored in a lock box.

The world is passing you by.....

 

[Brian Manzella]

why do people struggle and struggle with all this so called great teaching , because in reality no one has the answers to everyone's swing, why are people always asking all these questions, why are there so many different answers to them? why haven't people's handicap improved in 80 years?

They have been taught poorly.

Period.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Is it possible that the extra right path leads to a posture change that elevates the hands to prevent the club from catching the shot fat?

If your hand path is more away from you, you'd BETTER steepen the shaft.

Or whiff it.

My problem with that is it isn't really that much more right.

Do some quick math, and the numbers add up perfectly.

My next thought was that with a little more right path the face would have to be a little more open so could that be picked up as a more vertical plane because the face is more in line with the shaft from trackmans perspective?

No.