Is a good Pivot more important than Clubface Control?

[vjsinger]

Lately I've taken alot of time to think alot about why golfers(amateurs) swing the way they do and how someone would go about helping them get better. I recently joined a very old and very nice golf club near my home and am learning about the members and their games. Things I see on the range from alot of people:
Good grip,posture,alignment, backswings..etc.

Less than good things: Downswing Pivot dynamics and what some would call "poor clubface control", I hate the word control, but anyway...My question.

Most believe that "clubface control" is the secret to golf and is difficult to learn and teach. That is, having contol over the instrument(golf club). Why do we talk so much about "clubface control" and the physics, but not about what really "controls" the clubface..the pivot and the biomechanics,kinesiology of the true engine..the body pivot?
Just wondering...

 

[mgranato]

Not sure most do believe that clubface control is the key. I see more highly taught ams and minis drilling and drilling backswing positions over anything else. I see the same thing in putting. 99.9% of the people I see working on the practice green are working on stroke path - nothing on aiming, green reading, and face control. My conclusion is that the stroke path (full swing or putting) is something that can be easily seen (with the eye or vid cameral). It's not until recently that we've had the tools to measure what the clubface does.

 

[GPM1985]

Yeah, based on five summers of caddying, I don't think that clubface control is too high on the average golfer's priority list. Most of them are worried about keeping the head still and making V-gaps.

I think that if you can swing the club without falling over, the face has priority. Most people who have played a sport can at least make a decent pivot. There are some spastics who really cannot put any kind of swing on it, and that's okay because God created paddle tennis.

The other day I looped for a guy that puts a really good move on the ball and pounds it. However, he has the face open on most shots and hits a lot of pushes. When he manages to close the face a little bit, he hits nice push-draws or straightish, tight pushes. When he doesn't, send out the search party. There are a lot of guys like him. Good move, no idea of what the face is doing.

On the other hand, they are some old timers with hip and knee replacements who hit it 210 off the tee, but hit it straight as hell because they can put a squarish face on the club.

 

[vjsinger]

I believe that teaching someone the proper pivot is MUCH more important than teaching them "clubface control". Anyone that can hit it worth a damn with any kind of distance sure knows you aren't trying to "control" that clubface one iota. You're freewheeling/pivoting and letting it go. You can't have proper alignments/good geometry without the proper pivot. I also believe it's really hard to distinguish world class pivots to "pretty good one's". You sure as hell can't do it with the naked eye. Thoughts?

 

[spktho]

Coming to playing golf from baseball at the college level, I had no clue about club face control, but had a decent pivot. I think its been said here before that baseball hitters never had to worry about controlling the bat face, so golf club face control is sometimes difficult to learn. I did end up with some pivot quirks in an effort to stop slicing so bad that had to be corrected when I learned the proper twistaway which is the first time I heard of how to control the club face.

I don't know if you could distinguish between "world class pivots" and "pretty good pivots" even with 3D imaging. Take the top 5 golfers in the world and watch the small differences in just those pivots. How many differences would it take to move from "world class" to "pretty good"? I would bet though that using trackman you could prove there is a discernable difference between "world class" and "pretty good" club face control.

 

[vjsinger]

How to find the answers, that's the question.

Yeah pretty much. TRACKMAN is available now and I guess what the golf world really needs is some accurate way to measure what the body does in the swing. I've seen the MATT system that Taylormade has, but wonder how accurate it is. I wish there were a way to measure muscle contraction, stretch shorten cycles etc.etc. I wonder how far off we are on getting that technology?

 

[birdie_man]

Just curious...what's wrong with calling it clubface control?

Sounds too much like "coordination"?

And not enough like "mechanics"?

i.e. something mechanical one can change

It has crossed my mind (depending on the context) but I'm unsure how else to put it.

Wrist action? Dunno.

 

[vjsinger]

Just curious...what's wrong with calling it clubface control?

Sounds too much like "coordination"?

And not enough like "mechanics"?

i.e. something mechanical one can change

It has crossed my mind (depending on the context) but I'm unsure how else to put it.

Wrist action? Dunno.

I just don't like to call it that. I tried for awhile to figure out how to have a flat left wrist at impact and all it did was screw me up, thinking I could "control the clubface" easier, wrong. I hit it fat, thin, left, right and with varying traj.'s. Then I implemented a couple of pivot thoughts and it all fell into place. I got a flat left wrist at impact, the club actually rotated, the club is up the arm at impact with angled hinging etc.etc. all the stuff we like to babble about on this forum. The pivot thoughts were things we don't talk about here, actually it's stuff that gets shot down all of the time. I'm just wondering why we don't talk about this very important part of golf more often.

 

[ej20]

I just don't like to call it that. I tried for awhile to figure out how to have a flat left wrist at impact and all it did was screw me up, thinking I could "control the clubface" easier, wrong. I hit it fat, thin, left, right and with varying traj.'s. Then I implemented a couple of pivot thoughts and it all fell into place. I got a flat left wrist at impact, the club actually rotated, the club is up the arm at impact with angled hinging etc.etc. all the stuff we like to babble about on this forum. The pivot thoughts were things we don't talk about here, actually it's stuff that gets shot down all of the time. I'm just wondering why we don't talk about this very important part of golf more often.

Could it be that you have discovered pivot controlled hands is superior in the real world of pressure golf?

Care to share your pivot ideas?I love talking pivot......

 

[Bill Miracle]

I have spent a TON of time working on the pivot...

and it is uber important. But, until I understood the path the hands must take,I could never get the pivot under control. No matter how hard I tried, the hands didn't know where they were supposed to go and it threw everything off.

There are many components to a golf swing. The pivot is a great foundation...but, there are other pieces to the swing that can make focusing on just the pivot a real nightmare.

 

[Brian Manzella]

30,000 hours later....

I cleaned up this thread to make it more readable. It is a good idea for discussion. The first team is in the house....

Is a good Pivot more important than Clubface Control?


Hell no.

VJ, what you are finding out is what ALL GOOD PLAYERS find out, once you de-slice yourself, you better work on other things.

But if you want to fix golfers...

You'd better fix every slicer's face first.

This reminds me of "Shot Limit" (Neil)'s last lesson. He had de-sliced himself to the point of HE'D BETTER GET THE SHOULDERS AND HIPS OPEN, and leave the face alone, or else.

Just like most really good players.

I have read everything worth reading on the pivot, and trust me, most of them couldn't make a living teaching what they are preaching.

The MME six-degree 3D machine and the MATT System and both very accurate, and will BLOW UP most "silly pivot notions" in a jiffy.

The face rules, and the pivot is mostly mis-taught.

Now, what make a pivot good?

Here is THE List!!!

EIGHT WAYS TO SUNDAY
The 8 Ingredients of a Dynamic Pivot

1. A starting position that allows for an active—but controlled—move away from address.

2. Early "off the left foot" movement, if there is any.

3. Clearance for whatever hand path is chosen.

4. Enough PULL BACK (the away from the ball movement of the left shoulder, left hip, and left knee) to create the desired backswing DEPTH, HEIGHT, and potential energy.

5. A blended change-of-direction that LOADS the pressure in all the right places, and doesn't require too much re-aligning.

6. A strong move into the left leg—the "Run up." It must assist the golfer with the desired amount of TRAVEL of the hand path, as well as getting the left shoulder LOCATED for whatever "JUMP" is selected.

7. THROW THAT DRUNK OFF YOUR BACK. And do it in such a way that put the right amount of force in OPPOSITION to the clubhead force, and "shoots the tube."

8. Try to "stay there" and not be pulled out of position by a club that has been thrown REALLY HARD sometimes. But it matters on really easy throws too.

9. Try not to hurt yourself but finish like a golfer.

 

[spktho]

6. A strong move into the left leg—the "Run up." It must assist the golfer with the desired amount of TRAVEL of the hand path, as well as getting the left shoulder LOCATED for whatever "JUMP" is selected.

Is it correct to say that this also has to incorporate rotating the hips to preload the "jump"?

 

[cmartingolf]

VJ - Great Thread - My 2 cents fwiw

Most people have little ability to control the club face and even more don't know how to control the CLUB HEAD. If you can control the CLUB HEAD, it is way easier to control the club face.

The pivot is always thought of as a "full" motion. It can be small and it should be learned small so your hands can learn too.

To get people on the course and enjoying golf quickly, I don't teach the standard golfing machine curriculum of chip, pitch, punch and total motion... BUT...if I have someone that already plays mediocre golf I know they are into it and they see learning as an evolution, I will walk them through that curriculum.

Why? Because most of Golfdom can't make a small pivot and control distance, direction and trajectory. Why? Your hands don't know what they shouldn't be doing.

So...Pivot or Club Face?

Pivot

Then Club Head followed by Club Face.

 

[gmbtempe]

I don't have an answer to this question other than for years I worked on my swing but it only really improved once I understood some of the basics of the pivot. It seemed like I controlled the low point better as my pivot got better, thus solid contact improved.

 

[GPM1985]

Either/or arguments belong in Golf Digest

I don't know if you could distinguish between "world class pivots" and "pretty good pivots" even with 3D imaging.

Dude, even I can tell the difference between, say, 1991 John Daly and 2009 Fluffy Fields CC club champ. If you saw Alvaro Quiros hitting balls next to Brian Gay, what would stand out (aside from the abysmal taste in clothing)?

The "What's more important..." aspect of this discussion really smacks of either/or debate, which find to be pretty useless when it comes to golf. Obviously both things are very important, and there's really no need to diminish the importance of one by putting an unnecessary premium on the other.

We can walk and chew gum at the same time. You can work on your pivot while monitoring the face, and you may even have to in order to hit the ball straight. I know I do.

Three-dimensional analysis is the next frontier. In the not too distant future, a lot of people are going to look very, very stupid. A certain few will look like revolutionaries, and the rest will say that they were with them all the way. Whatever. The good news is that the end of wives-tale golf instruction is approaching with ever-increasing speed.

As technology reveals exactly what the body is doing during the golf swing, the pivot and clubface control will become more and more tightly linked. Connections will be discovered. Knowing the "why" will prevent a lot of divisive, counter-productive arguments. It'll be great. I hope that golf will continue to receive attention from the great scientific minds that have already shown interest, and that more smart people will join in. Golf represents a unique opportunity for the marriage of sport and science. I think the surface has only been scratched.

 

[dbl]

Why do we talk so much about "clubface control" and the physics, but not about what really "controls" the clubface..the pivot and the biomechanics,kinesiology of the true engine..the body pivot?

I think I disagree, but some clarification of terms is important. I'd say pivot has only to do with the lower body and core. It does not include arms. Therefore in so far as clubface control, a pivot influences the arms, but has no direct bearing. So as an example of a clubface control component....full ccw rotating arms...are not strictly a function of the pivot.

 

[spktho]

Dude, even I can tell the difference between, say, 1991 John Daly and 2009 Fluffy Fields CC club champ. If you saw Alvaro Quiros hitting balls next to Brian Gay, what would stand out (aside from the abysmal taste in clothing)?

I should have put the context that I was speaking of--I was thinking more like Tiger Woods(#1 on the money list) vs. J.L. Lewis(#258) or any other pro below say #30 on the list. Even if you compare Tiger's pivot to Furyk's funky looking pivot, the one thing that sets them apart from others on the tour is club face control with woods, irons, and the putter. It would be hard to classify the Fluffy Fields CC club champ as "less than pretty good" without seeing him/her. There of course would be a better defined classification for pivots other than "world class" and "pretty good". What if you could see, measure and show through a 3D mapping that two golfers have near perfect pivots, what would be the difference between their scoring?

I too think the question is difficult to answer since the golf swing is a system, so to speak. But, you have to separate the pivot from club face control to answer the question of which is more important.

 

[junkilo]

I recently discovered that starting downswing with a strong pivot seemed to make it easier to make less mistakes with the arms in the downswing.

clubface control rules imo. trying to increase clubface control, monitored with pp3 with the last minute details at impact is my challenge but I think i'm on the right path.

 

[wdking]

Most people have little ability to control the club face and even more don't know how to control the CLUB HEAD. If you can control the CLUB HEAD, it is way easier to control the club face.

The pivot is always thought of as a "full" motion. It can be small and it should be learned small so your hands can learn too.

To get people on the course and enjoying golf quickly, I don't teach the standard golfing machine curriculum of chip, pitch, punch and total motion... BUT...if I have someone that already plays mediocre golf I know they are into it and they see learning as an evolution, I will walk them through that curriculum.

Why? Because most of Golfdom can't make a small pivot and control distance, direction and trajectory. Why? Your hands don't know what they shouldn't be doing.

So...Pivot or Club Face?

Pivot

Then Club Head followed by Club Face.

Very Insightful Martin. So the Four Pressure Points:
1) Heel of Right Hand on top of Left Thumb
2) Last Three Fingers of Left Hand
3) Right Forefinger BEHIND Shaft
4) Left Arm Connects to Left Chest

are clubhead control. You told me to train each separately, but I might be more than a little clueless as to how to work on 2 and 4.
Could you elaborate a little more?
Thanks,

 

[vjsinger]

Could it be that you have discovered pivot controlled hands is superior in the real world of pressure golf?

Care to share your pivot ideas?I love talking pivot......

I think hands controlled pivot in the BS and pivot controlled hands in the DS. At least that's what I feel in the BS in order to not OVER pivot and get my hands higher. In the downswing I pivot left the way Brian describes the DS pivot in Soft Draw. I feel an increased stretch in the left side with early axis tilt, then I just throw about as hard as I can from about halfway down in the downswing.