Is a good Pivot more important than Clubface Control?

[vjsinger]

5. A blended change-of-direction that LOADS the pressure in all the right places, and doesn't require too much re-aligning.

Thanks Brian, great list. My interest is where are the right places (body,club?) AND if someone were to ask you to explain it to them in simple terms of HOW and WHERE to load the pressure.

example(scenario):

Student background: Slicer. About a 20 handi., in decent shape(thinner build), not very flexible in the back and shoulders. Lots of early hip turn in the BS, completes the swing with alot of arm lift and gets under the sweetspot coming down and either hits a pull slice or a big push slice. Barely stresses the shaft in transition and is in need of more power. Wants to get rid of the slice and play better and understands that he has a hold on move in the DS so he can try and get it around the course, but when he tries to add some "twistaway" in Bs and maintain the twist in DS, he hits a awful pull hook. His friend, tells him that the answer may be in his pivot, particularly in startdown, but doesn't know what to tell him to help him, except to try the back and forth swinging drill, which doesn't help much. The student is more of an analytical thinker and needs specific information to perform the desired task.


Student"s question to Brian Manzella:
Mr. Manzella, I can't stop slicing, my friend let me watch all of your movies and I've been working on NSA, with twistaway and without and I still hit a pull hook if I try to "control the clubface" i.e. rotate it. How do I learn to load pressure the correct way in startdown without too much re-aligning?

 

[ej20]

I think hands controlled pivot in the BS and pivot controlled hands in the DS. At least that's what I feel in the BS in order to not OVER pivot and get my hands higher.

I think thats a great idea.It's what Hogan did.He described something similar in 5 lessons.

I am quite surprised with all the Hogan talk on forums that this particular part of the book is not often discussed.

He said that the order of movement in the swing is this.....on the backswing the correct order of movement is hands,arms,shoulders,hips.On the downswing the order is just reversed.Hips,shoulders,arms,hands.

Sounds awfully like hands controlled pivot on the backswing and pivot controlled hands on the downswing.

 

[vjsinger]

Most people have little ability to control the club face and even more don't know how to control the CLUB HEAD. If you can control the CLUB HEAD, it is way easier to control the club face.

The pivot is always thought of as a "full" motion. It can be small and it should be learned small so your hands can learn too.

To get people on the course and enjoying golf quickly, I don't teach the standard golfing machine curriculum of chip, pitch, punch and total motion... BUT...if I have someone that already plays mediocre golf I know they are into it and they see learning as an evolution, I will walk them through that curriculum.

Why? Because most of Golfdom can't make a small pivot and control distance, direction and trajectory. Why? Your hands don't know what they shouldn't be doing.

So...Pivot or Club Face?

Pivot

Then Club Head followed by Club Face.

Martin,

Thanks for the input, you always write really good stuff that makes me go...hmmmm. So, I don't really quite understand the difference between, CLUBHEAD control and CLUBFACE control...Why aren't they the same thing??

I think that is really spot on when you pointed out the Basic cirriculum idea for the serious golf geek(me). It wasn't until I started hitting half shots alot that I started to understand compression, pivot and the blend. Do you have your students fill out a questionaire type thing to gauge goals, abilities,"smarts" on the golf stroke etc.?? I have thought this to be a great idea for teachers to do.

 

[vjsinger]

I think thats a great idea.It's what Hogan did.He described something similar in 5 lessons.

I am quite surprised with all the Hogan talk on forums that this particular part of the book is not often discussed.

He said that the order of movement in the swing is this.....on the backswing the correct order of movement is hands,arms,shoulders,hips.On the downswing the order is just reversed.Hips,shoulders,arms,hands.

Sounds awfully like hands controlled pivot on the backswing and pivot controlled hands on the downswing.

Cool. I need to pick up Hogans book...is that bad that I don't have it Some might say I'm not a true golfer until I have that book I checked it out from the library once and found the sequence part in the book to be the most helpful. Nicklaus' 'Lesson Tee' is the greatest instructional book I've ever read, I actually own that one, lots of good stuff in that.

 

[2mongoose]

Generally speaking, I think you'll get more out of "good" player by improving clubface control and more out of a "poor" player by working on the pivot.

Assuming you start from scratch clubface control means zero if you can't deliver it (the club). The pivot is the vehicle and if you F that up everything else is a compensation.

 

[spktho]

It's a lot easier to play from the fairway of the hole you're playing-- minus a forced carry distance isn't as important if you can hit where you want. Distance from a good pivot with little club face control may just mean OB or playing from 1 or 2 fairways over.

 

[self-mastery]

I think that the correct hand action creates clubface control. In my world, the pivot is responsible for positioning and loading the shaft The arms and hands are responsible for pow'r.

 

[cmartingolf]

Very Insightful Martin. So the Four Pressure Points:
1) Heel of Right Hand on top of Left Thumb
2) Last Three Fingers of Left Hand
3) Right Forefinger BEHIND Shaft
4) Left Arm Connects to Left Chest

are clubhead control. You told me to train each separately, but I might be more than a little clueless as to how to work on 2 and 4.
Could you elaborate a little more?
Thanks,

WD, you can focus your mind's attention wherever you want. If you hit half shots, pitches, etc, simply focus and feel the pressure during the change of directions (puts into your left hand). Hit some short left arm only chip shots and you'll feel the pressure build. It's an interesting awareness. Personally, I DON'T feel much pressure at this point.

As far as #4, your pivot should "throw" your arms onto your chest in your backswing and your pivot will throw your arms away from your chest during your downswing.

Even though your eyes might be looking at "whitey," your attention can float around and be aware of pressure, etc.

Martin,

Thanks for the input, you always write really good stuff that makes me go...hmmmm. So, I don't really quite understand the difference between, CLUBHEAD control and CLUBFACE control...Why aren't they the same thing??

I think that is really spot on when you pointed out the Basic cirriculum idea for the serious golf geek(me). It wasn't until I started hitting half shots alot that I started to understand compression, pivot and the blend. Do you have your students fill out a questionaire type thing to gauge goals, abilities,"smarts" on the golf stroke etc.?? I have thought this to be a great idea for teachers to do.

Club Head control is really just understanding how to devolop and maintain lag pressure. If you have lag pressure you have club head control. If you have club head control the inert mass isn't wobbling around and the club face is somewhat fixed relative to how the club is situated in your hands. If you can pivot this "fixed" relationship the club face has some control. This is hard. Not many people can pivot a lagging club. The club face won't give them the results so they have to flip it. Some flip it better than others.

To your second point: the half shots are HUGE. A lot of learning takes place.

I don't have the students fill out any docs. I do that. Students walk with a DVD of the lesson and notes. Sometimes we don't look at the video during the lesson, but they can refer to it later. I use carbonless paper so I have a record of what I told the student. That way, if I see them three months down the road I know where we left off and where to begin. Also, if one of my staff inherits them, they know what we talked about.

 

[vjsinger]

Thanks Martin. I see now what you mean. My game and ballstriking improved soooo quickly once I started understanding lag pressure through the curriculum and especially in the half swings. For me, because I hit so many acquired motion shots it transferred well into my full swing as I feel like I have a reference point to pour it on with that lag pressure in pp1-3. How often do you use the curriculum with students? Thanks for the post.

 

[dbl]

vjsinger,

Do you talk more than listen? Cmartin already provided the answer to your question in post 13 of this thread (http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...rtant-than-clubface-control-2.html#post152705)

To get people on the course and enjoying golf quickly, I don't teach the standard golfing machine curriculum of chip, pitch, punch and total motion... BUT...if I have someone that already plays mediocre golf I know they are into it and they see learning as an evolution, I will walk them through that curriculum.

 

[vjsinger]

vjsinger,

Do you talk more than listen? Cmartin already provided the answer to your question in post 13 of this thread (http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...rtant-than-clubface-control-2.html#post152705)

Can you read? I asked how often, not who. Thanks for giving me another opportunity to type though, I do enjoy it

 

[dbl]

Let's restate the exchange so far

CM: I give students what they need, so to restate...I give student type1 curriculum A and student type2 curriculum B.

VJS: How often do you give curriculum B?

DBL: (alternative) How often do you see student type2?


It just wasn't clear from your question that you had absorbed CM's previous information.

Perhaps you will get an answer that will show there are seasonal variations in the streams for students whcih pros see.

 

[vjsinger]

Sorry I wasn't clear, but I couldn't take your post any other way, that is, when you inferred I like to type just to see myself type type... at least in this instance. Yes, hopefully the seeker of knowledge(me) receives said knowledge.