JACK VS. TIGER

[trickyric67]

Tiger did that in 2000.His scoring average was 67.79 which is the all time record and a full 2 shots a round better than Jack's best season.That means Tiger would have beaten Jack by an average 8 shots in a tournament given their best scoring seasons.

Are you going to pit Babe Ruths best years vs Barry Bonds now also?
Jack played on courses that were less than pristine with wooden clubs and wound inconsistant golf balls not to mention there were no cnc milling machines to make his clubs or launch monitors to match his clubs. Tiger has a golf ball engineered for him. Jack would get his golf balls and like hogan they would drop them in a water solution with a pen mark to make sure they didn't have a heavy spot. not quite the same.
I walked every hole of the tournament at Baltusrol in 1980 with Jacks groups and he was out driving his playing partners and hitting most of the greelns. The only way you can evaluate a player is by there preformance against the competition of there era. Jack played against 3 generations of studs and kept winning and being ready to pounce in every major for all that time. And he did change his swing in the early 80's to a flatter more rounded move then won the masters at 46 years old.
BTW Hogan's 1953 was every bit as awsome as the tiger slam as he won almost every event he entered. And I know Sam Snead, arnie et all weren't as good as steve tricker

 

[mgranato]

Classic 19th hole thread...

If I'm picking teams, I'm taking Jack over Dolemite as the first pick. Let's not forget who's chasing who's accomplishments. Jack didn't have a record of 18 to shoot for, if he did, I'd have to believe it would get crushed.

If you ever get bored, get on Wiki and look at who finished 2nd in Jack's major wins vs. who finishd 2nd in Dolemite's major wins.

 

[ej20]

Classic 19th hole thread...

If I'm picking teams, I'm taking Jack over Dolemite as the first pick. Let's not forget who's chasing who's accomplishments. Jack didn't have a record of 18 to shoot for, if he did, I'd have to believe it would get crushed.

If you ever get bored, get on Wiki and look at who finished 2nd in Jack's major wins vs. who finishd 2nd in Dolemite's major wins.

Those guys that finished second to Jack might have finished second less if the competition had more depth.Jack knew he only had a few guys to beat.

The strugglers on tour back in Jack's days had to feed the family with a second job and had no time to practice.Like hell did they have a chance to beat the top guys.These days even number 70 in the world will be millionaires.

 

[mgranato]

Says you

 

[duckjr78]

Tiger's best is better than Jack's best. But I think Jones best was better than Jack's best as well. If we want to talk about whose best is best, Miller, Hogan, Nelson Snead, and a whole bunch of other guys come into the equation.

Jack beat better players. The 2nd level of competition back then was much better than it is now. Woods beats more players. The depth of the entire field is better now than it was in Jack's time.

Right now, Jack is the best, because he did it. Tiger is only "on his way to doing it."

 

[ej20]

Says you

In debates without stats,he who comes up with the best crap wins.LOL

 

[Brian Manzella]

How does David Toms get into the top 3 fairway wood players and mid iron players? a great player but not in the league of Trevino, Watson, Nicklaus, Woods, Seve, Faldo, Irwin. For great fairway wood players why doesn't Lanny Wadkins feature or Colin Montgomerie?

I adjusted my quick off the top of my head list to include some more or the best I've seen.

None of this has anything to with how great a player is, but I wasn't going to include Loren Roberts or Morris Haltalski.

David has won 12 times, with a Major, and played on 3 Ryder Cup and 3 President Cup teams.

He is not a long hitter, no chance out of deep rough, etc.

How the heck you think he won 33 million dollars?

Cold Stiffing a bunch of 7-irons, and playing long, long par 4's and reachable par 5's very, very well.

From what I saw of Byron Nelson at 60 years old, I'd rank him above David in mid-irons, but I never saw him play.

Just hit range balls.

 

[matt kluck]

Nicklaus Experience

I remember the 1973 Open at Oakmont with my Father. We were returning to our car around 5pm after a Tuesday practice round when we heard that Jack Nicklaus was playing a late evening round. We could not miss that and of course we went out to where JN was and watched from there. We picked him up on the 14th hole and there were about 50-60 people watching the greatest player in the world. What a treat! He interacted with the gallery and answered questions and on the 18th hole, which at the time played 454 yards, JN hit his drive and I swear I never heard a ball sound like that before. He mangled it down the right side of the fairway with a slight draw and proceeded to re-tee another ball. One of the people in the gallery said to JN "What was the matter with that shot"! JN replied "That not even Nicklaus could hit it that good" and everyone got a big laugh out of it.
We got to his ball and overheard his caddy tell him he had 128 to the pin which was in the left center of the green. Furniture and balata, 325 yard drive, no wind. For those of you who never saw him hit it in his prime you truly missed something special.
MK

 

[rogerdodger]

I adjusted my quick off the top of my head list to include some more or the best I've seen.

None of this has anything to with how great a player is, but I wasn't going to include Loren Roberts or Morris Haltalski.

David has won 12 times, with a Major, and played on 3 Ryder Cup and 3 President Cup teams.

He is not a long hitter, no chance out of deep rough, etc.

How the heck you think he won 33 million dollars?

Cold Stiffing a bunch of 7-irons, and playing long, long par 4's and reachable par 5's very, very well.

From what I saw of Byron Nelson at 60 years old, I'd rank him above David in mid-irons, but I never saw him play.

Just hit range balls.

Mr. Toms won a PGA championship while hitting a hole in one with a five wood. Neither Colin Montgomerie or Lanny Wadkins has done that. Notwithstanding, I have watched Lanny play in his prime and he was unbelieveably good with his middle and short irons. He was a better iron player than he was with his fairway woods.

 

[chipingguru]

I didn't ever see the young Jack, but he did come to Tampa to open a local course he had redesigned, when he was around 51 or so. Played an exhibition with Gary Koch. Shot 62 like he was pouring a morning cup of coffee, screwing around describing each hole to the crowd.

But as far as distance, if you check the stats Tom Watson averaged 282 in 2009, and in 1980 was in the low 260's.

How does a 59 year old man pick up 20 yards on his drive over age 29 if it isn't equipment? Even Tom Kite is above 270 and was just above 250 when he was in his prime. Couples went from 260's in 1980's to almost 300 currently.

I shudder to think what 23 year old Jack would average with the new equipment.

 

[b90jos]

What about gary player.. I like his style...and his book! "Don't Choke".

 

[ej20]

I didn't ever see the young Jack, but he did come to Tampa to open a local course he had redesigned, when he was around 51 or so. Played an exhibition with Gary Koch. Shot 62 like he was pouring a morning cup of coffee, screwing around describing each hole to the crowd.

But as far as distance, if you check the stats Tom Watson averaged 282 in 2009, and in 1980 was in the low 260's.

How does a 59 year old man pick up 20 yards on his drive over age 29 if it isn't equipment? Even Tom Kite is above 270 and was just above 250 when he was in his prime. Couples went from 260's in 1980's to almost 300 currently.

I shudder to think what 23 year old Jack would average with the new equipment.

Add 30 yards.Jack would have averaged around 310 or so in his prime.The extra distance would have meant less fairways as well.Thats just logical.Tiger's best average for the year was around 318.Hardly reason to shudder.

Forty year old Jack was averaging just 10 yards longer than 40 year old Trevino.

 

[drewyallop]

Fun with statistics!

The claims and counterclaims will roll on endlessly; we need a Bill James to clear this all up; I guarantee that he would use composite metrics to settle things.

Without professional statistical help my thought is that top 10 and 2nd place major finishes is the only metric we have now that measures golf playing performance under the most intense competitive pressure against the cream of the competition.

Drew

 

[aaron_lohan]

I adjusted my quick off the top of my head list to include some more or the best I've seen.

None of this has anything to with how great a player is, but I wasn't going to include Loren Roberts or Morris Haltalski.

David has won 12 times, with a Major, and played on 3 Ryder Cup and 3 President Cup teams.

He is not a long hitter, no chance out of deep rough, etc.

How the heck you think he won 33 million dollars?

Cold Stiffing a bunch of 7-irons, and playing long, long par 4's and reachable par 5's very, very well.

From what I saw of Byron Nelson at 60 years old, I'd rank him above David in mid-irons, but I never saw him play.

Just hit range balls.

Money won is meaningless, purses have inflated so much in the past 20 years, I am merely pointing out that guys like Trevino, Miller, Watson, Tiger, Hale Irwin are better mid iron players.

 

[aaron_lohan]

Mr. Toms won a PGA championship while hitting a hole in one with a five wood. Neither Colin Montgomerie or Lanny Wadkins has done that. Notwithstanding, I have watched Lanny play in his prime and he was unbelieveably good with his middle and short irons. He was a better iron player than he was with his fairway woods.

So your saying Toms gets on the list because he made that hole in one in a major he won? Toms has had a great career; he got a lot out of his talent and he and the people around him deserve a lot of credit for it, but he wasn't good enough to be classed as one of the top 3 in any category.

 

[GolfHappy]

Monty won the European order of merit 8 times and a trillion Ryder Cup points, he's never hit a good shot?

ooops, don't want to go off topic... Tiger is the best by a country mile! Better competitors, harder courses and [apparently] modern drivers are harder to hit (someone said in a recent thread).

 

[Kevin Shields]

Probably an over sight, but perhaps Faldo was left off the lists just to get me riled up. Anyone who needs a birdie on 18 at a US Open and lays back so he can stiff it with a 3 iron gets my vote. Also stiffed a 3 iron on #18 at Muirfield to clinch the Open. Hole in one at the Ryder Cup, etc. No one besides maybe Jack hit more crucial long irons close to the hole.

Aslo you could put Nick Price and David Duval anywhere on the ball striking list cuz there aint nobody that was better. Maybe as good but not better.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Thanks for the stats.. doesn't seem too fond of the sand

Money won is meaningless, purses have inflated so much in the past 20 years, I am merely pointing out that guys like Trevino, Miller, Watson, Tiger, Hale Irwin are better mid iron players.

Hey Aaron, how many shots and holes of each player have you witnessed in person?

 

[rogerdodger]

So your saying Toms gets on the list because he made that hole in one in a major he won? Toms has had a great career; he got a lot out of his talent and he and the people around him deserve a lot of credit for it, but he wasn't good enough to be classed as one of the top 3 in any category.

Not many tour players have hit a hole in one on a 240 yard hole with a fairway wood to help win a major. Who else has done that? Criteria wise, Toms needs to be a great fairway wood player to win due to his lack of length compared to others on tour. This is a subjective poll, but winning a major championship is pretty vital to be included. In the last ten years, Toms has been the best with fairway woods. All time is Irwin, Hogan and Ray Floyd. I have no doubt some would argue for Knudson who was the guy Trevino thought was the best fairway wood player he had ever seen.

 

[trickyric67]

where do you people get this "weaker fields" stuff?
the all exempt tour has watered down fields in the modern game to a point of rediculousness. in Jacks day there were no winless Journeyman who lasted 15 years and played in 31 tournaments a year.
lets look at who Jack played against: Arnold Palmer, Gary Player,Billy Casper (51 pga tour wins)Tom Watson, Tom Wesikopf,Julius Boros, Seve Ballesteros, Johnny Miller,Tommy Bolt,Dave Stockton,Hale Irwin,Lanny Wadkins,Lee Trevino,Ray Floyd,Chi Chi Rodriguez, Gene Litler,Miller Barber and that is just off the top of my head. They went head to head all the time because they didn't have 52 weeks of tournaments so they played what the tour offered and since the creation of the PGA tour a player could become very rich playing so they did not go back to a club job if they could stay exempt.
Tiger plays Phil and Vijay and who else really comes close to the list of men I gave?
how many people active on the tour since Tiger joined have won 10 tournament in their careers?
let alone 4 or more majors.
Jack won the Masters against Palmer in his prime,Johnny Miller in his prime,Tom Watson in his prime and Greg Norman in his prime.
That is simply greatness!