JACK VS. TIGER

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trickyric67

trickyric67

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ej20 said:
"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments.

Pure stats don't always paint the entire picture.They can often be a good indication but you cannot purely rely on them to come to a concrete conclusion.

An example is GIR stats.Someone who is aggressive and shoots at the pin more often is going to miss more greens than someone who always goes for the fat part of the green.You cannot purely use GIR stats to determine who is the better iron player.

Well done though.You must have spent the best part of 2 days coming up with those stats.I am sure I could find a way to use stats to bolster my argument also but I don't plan to waste 2 days.

It is generally accepted that the depth of competition is tougher now than in the past.If that is not good enough for you,we'll just leave it at that.
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this might be the most ignorant post of this entire debate.

the man compared exactly what was being discussed, put serious time and effort into it and because it didn't fit your desired predisposed conclusion you call him a liar.
BTW where is it documented "It is generally accepted that the depth of competition is tougher now than in the past", I have heard that about the 40's and 50's but not the the 70's and 80's.
just keep insulting the people who post facts that you don't like and keep posting assumptions that have no facts behind them.
 
trickyric67

trickyric67

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Kevin Shields said:
Just like Julius Boros and Sam Snead won in your era at 48 and 52 years old. Weak argument. Kinda speaks alot about that era if Doug Sanders could win 20 times. He couldnt caddy on tour today.
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no, it shows that golf has had pretty consistant competition for decades and that the best players can win in any era.
BTW
why the hate for Sanders? I saw the man play and he was as good as anyone Iv'e seen today. Did you ever see him play or are you just angry because he dressed better than you?
He beat Trevino and Nicklaus in those events? are you then saying that Jack and Lee wouldn't be able to caddie today?
 
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ej20

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trickyric67 said:
this might be the most ignorant post of this entire debate.

the man compared exactly what was being discussed, put serious time and effort into it and because it didn't fit your desired predisposed conclusion you call him a liar.
BTW where is it documented "It is generally accepted that the depth of competition is tougher now than in the past", I have heard that about the 40's and 50's but not the the 70's and 80's.
just keep insulting the people who post facts that you don't like and keep posting assumptions that have no facts behind them.
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I have not had one poster object to this "assumption" except you.....and there must be more than a few people that are reading this thread.

You are now just clutching at straws which is the sign of desperation.
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I love the old timers. All im saying, and then im out (like you said you were), is that this "all time great" list from 30-40 years ago would look alot more pedestrian if they had the deeper fields of today. Its normal to hero worship from the era you grew up in. I'll always think Barry Sanders, Earl Campbell and Walter Payton were the best. But its laughable to think these players would be held in the same regard if they had to go up against the fields of today. There victory totals would be totally different. Jerry pate was quoted once saying in his days you used to see the worst shots ever under pressure that you dont see today. Just sayin.

Obviously the Sanders comments were tongue in cheek.
 
trickyric67

trickyric67

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ej20 said:
I have not had one poster object to this "assumption" except you.....and there must be more than a few people that are reading this thread.

You are now just clutching at straws which is the sign of desperation.
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there you go again with insults, that is ussually a sign you have no argument
 
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niblick1

New
trickyric67 said:
my lord do you people do any research before making baseless comments?
Gary Player,Seve Ballesteros,Julios Boros,Roberto Divincenzo,David Graham,Bruce Devlin,Tony Jacklin,Chi Chi Rodrigeuz, Bruce Crampton,Nick Faldo,Bob Charles, Greg Norman, Jumbo Ozaki,Isao Aoki and for you canadians Moe Norman and George Knudson...the list goes on. A few post back a very smart member of this board posted actual statistics that proved the competition may have been better and tighter in the 70's than today but you guys just keep pulling unfounded assumptions out of the air.
it is clear your sense of what is recent history and what is not is warped and you guys certainly don't know your golf history.
BTW did someone actually compare Jacks era to Bobby jones? Really? Jones career was over 40 years before Jacks started??? Jack has actually outscored Tiger in events they played together!
and Kevin, Doug Sanders won 20 PGA tour events, a whole lot more than Mrs Doubtfire "monty" even though they both didn't win a major. Johnny Miller won at Pebble in 1994 only 23 years after winning his first event and he has 2 majors. I guess the competition must have really sucked butt in the 90's because 2 old farts like Miller and Ray Floyd could beat your young studs when they were in their fifties.
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Hey, Ric, no need to get worked up about it; it's just a friendly discussion among us golf nuts.

Of course I know about those players, I watched several of them play when I was a kid. Ballesteros was my favorite golfer for years. Ballesteros towered over Spanish golf at the time. Think how many top golfers there are from Spain (or Sweden) now.

Golf in the '60s was primarily a US-UK-former UK colonies thing. There were hundreds of millions fewer people on the planet and there were millions of fewer golfers. Think how many tours there are now, how many millions more people play golf. Look at Asia now compared to then. Think of how many pro golfers Korea alone has produced in the last twenty years. Compare the number of people playing golf in Japan in 1965 to today.

It's not that dissimilar to the growth of people playing basketball in Europe and other parts of the world. 50 years ago a top US college team could beat almost any team in the world. Now teams from Turkey, Australia, Croatia, or Spain contend against NBA all-star teams. In the '60s 7-footers were rare and those few that were that tall and could actually run, dribble, and shoot a little dominated. Soccer is not the same game it was in the '60's either. There are linemen in the NFL who weigh 290 who are faster than some running backs who played in the '60s. Think how much better the 8th player is today on the average NBA team than he was 30 years ago.

People are bigger and stronger, they specialize in sports at younger age, and there are hundreds of millions more people on the planet playing sports. The pool to draw from is deeper and there are more extreme statistical outliers (champion potential) in terms of talent. Golf is not that different from other sports. The guy cashing a $300 check for finishing 50th in 1965 in the LA Open is not the same guy, in terms of talent, as the one who finishes in that spot in 2011. The competition to be number 100 in the world today in golf is 5-10x(?) what it was then.
 
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chipingguru

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Sanders, Campbell, Payton would be just as great today. Art of tackling has been lost - witness the Saints game yesterday.

Did you catch Phil blow that US Open? Less bad shots today under pressure?

Please.
 
Dariusz J.

Dariusz J.

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trickyric67 said:
One more thing, as for courses being easier you couldn't be more wrong! the rough was thicker the greens were bumpy and and the fairways were inconsistant at best. todays courses are manicured to the point of rediculousness for the pro's [...]
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True. Pros are not artists any more. They would struggle much more during times when precision was the most important virtue - and not jost putting and distance. I simply laugh when todays pampered pros call for a free drop in every possible situation on their pampered courses where the so-called heavy rough permits to see upper half of the ball. Pathetic.

Cheers
 
trickyric67

trickyric67

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Kevin,
You obviously don't remember meeting me. I graduated High school in the 80's but I did see Jack win a US Open and PGA against old timers like Freddie couples,Greg Norman and Hal Sutton who beat tiger for a players championship ?????????
why do you keep insinuating that the late 70's and early 80's are ancient history ?
any one who played from 75 to 86 could easily be in their mid 50's or younger. Does this not register with you?
 
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ej20

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I think everyone can see it is you who is the one losing his cool and throwing the insults.

If debating is unsulting others then you are doing plenty of that.
 
trickyric67

trickyric67

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One more thing,
it's not the Jack Vs Tiger thing that gets me riled up, it's the ridiculously unfounded assumptions made by people and the insistence that an opinion is a fact and more to the point that they make the 11 years between tigers first major and jack last seem like it was 100. historically in sports 25 years is a fairly comparative era. I have been a huge sports fan my whole life and athletes like Reggie Jackson, Barry Sanders, Lawrence Taylor or Jack Nicklaus would be as dominant today as they were when they played. it was just not that long ago!
 
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ej20

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trickyric67 said:
Im sorry it wasn't you who called someone a liar?
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Where have I called anyone a liar??

I quoted a well known phrase for the intention of making the point that stats don't always paint the entire picture and Kamloops whole heartedly agrees and never called me out for calling him a liar.

You responded by calling me ignorant which I did not respond to but now you keep accusing me of insulting other posters.I take offence to be called ignorant.Who is the one throwing the insults?

I have agreed to disagree many pages ago on this matter but you can't seem to let it go.
 
trickyric67

trickyric67

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ej20 said:
Where have I called anyone a liar??

I quoted a well known phrase for the intention of making the point that stats don't always paint the entire picture and Kamloops whole heartedly agrees and never called me out for calling him a liar.

You responded by calling me ignorant which I did not respond to but now you keep accusing me of insulting other posters.I take offense to be called ignorant.Who is the one throwing the insults?

I have agreed to disagree many pages ago on this matter but you can't seem to let it go.
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your post was in my opinion ignorant,

the Definition of Ignorant: "lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact."

Calling someone or insinuating that they are a liar or are using figures to be nefarious is an insult.

apparently you can't let it go either :)
 
trickyric67

trickyric67

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I'll take the 1981 Ryder cup team over the last one anyday

Lee Trevino
Tom Kite
Bill Rogers
Larry Nelson
Ben Crenshaw
Bruce Lietzke
Jerry Pate
Hale Irwin
Johnny Miller
Tom Watson
Raymond Floyd
Jack Nicklaus
 
trickyric67

trickyric67

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Woot! Woot!

this was the Euro Squad they played against

Sam Torrance
Sandy Lyle
Bernard Gallacher
Mark James
Des Smyth
Bernhard Langer
Manuel Piñero
José Maria Cañizares
Nick Faldo
Howard Clark
Peter Oosterhuis
Eamonn Darcy
 
B

b90jos

New
trickyric67 said:
One more thing,
it's not the Jack Vs Tiger thing that gets me riled up, it's the ridiculously unfounded assumptions made by people and the insistence that an opinion is a fact and more to the point that they make the 11 years between tigers first major and jack last seem like it was 100. historically in sports 25 years is a fairly comparative era. I have been a huge sports fan my whole life and athletes like Reggie Jackson, Barry Sanders, Lawrence Taylor or Jack Nicklaus would be as dominant today as they were when they played. it was just not that long ago!
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Barry Sanders was quite the running back indeed... But Adrian Peterson is the MAN lol..seriously.

I didn't think this thread would last this long.

This is just like an.. Kobe Bryant vs. Michael Jordan debate.... Whether people like it or not.. Kobe is actually more skilled than jordan was.. Tiger Woods is more skilled than Jack Nicklaus. He is.. it's obvious. Tiger is chasing jack... Kobe is chasing jordans 6 rings.. People are being biased. Tiger is a better golfer...his favorite golfer was jack.. He grew up watching jack and improved on what jack lacked..the short game. Kobe shoots the 3 and handles the ball better than jordan.. Jordan had better defense though.. but can't take away kobe made NBA all-defensive team several times.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
The Host will clear this all up...

The things that make the GREATEST in their era, have NOTHING to do with the era they are in.

Bobby Jones, Walter Hagen, Gene Sarazen, Ben Hogan, San Snead, Byron Nelson, Arnold Palmer, Gary Player. Jack Nicklaus, Tom Watson, Seve, Nick Faldo, and Tiger would be great in ANY ERA.

As far as the depth of fields go.....try this one on.

In 1983, you could have gone through the 1st, 2nd, and Final stages of the PGA Tour School with 14 straight 73's.

Now? One and done.
 
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