Michael Finney
New
Now, our case may be rested, but if you smart guys out there want to re-open it, by all means, do so - we'll listen
Jamie S. 6 dof-3d
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
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Brian Manzella
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Phil Cheetham
By the way. Just for the record we don't filter (aka smooth) the velocity data on the AMM3D kinematic sequence graphs. The Polhemus Liberty system (the electromagnetic hardware we used to capture the motion) does such an accurate job of giving good angles that when we differentiate to calculate velocity we don't need to smooth.
gmbtempe
New
I've seen a few graphs of amateurs who dont decel the hips.
Accompanied by an all around screwy looking sequencing graph and low clubhead speed.
Where the graph of the pro and the pelvis peaks at what point in the swing is that?
Right. Even if it's true that Sadlowski decelerates his hips at some point prior to impact, is that an insight that can help me personally? Should I intentionally try to slow down my hips? What "feel" should I use?
I've seen a few graphs of amateurs who dont decel the hips.
Accompanied by an all around screwy looking sequencing graph and low clubhead speed.
It's interesting looking at those graphs you posted that Sadlowski is closer to Amateur 2 than the pro.Sadlowski decelerates a microsecond before impact but he starts to decelerate much later than the pro who begins deceleration half way into his downswing.So what is that teaching us?
dschultz6072
New
The feel should be the clubhead should be swinging fastest through the ball. The whip needs to be cracked, not flailed or heaved across your body.
There is a lot of coasting that goes on if you are "swinging" the club. Some of these actions you are seeing on these graphs JUST HAPPEN. Whether or not you or the guys over there will believe that, that's fine. But really, I would get out of that silly frame of mind that you can consciously control the actions that take place in your downswing when they happen in less than a fifth of a second.
Ask yourself, "If I were to get on these machines, would the graph of my sequence be similar to the pros?" Is the energy focused on moving the clubhead or moving the body? How do I/you move the clubhead faster? This is the crux of the matter, and it's really that simple. Why people put so much thought into anything else i.e. certain body parts tilting or bending or extending, I don't know. Do you think about what things to do with what body parts and in what order and at what sequence when you are driving a stick shift? Of course not. The cerebellum takes care of that.
Figure it out.
Club movements vs. body movements
This is actually an interesting argument. Here's the way I would re-phrase it: "if you want a lot more clubhead speed, you should focus on what the club is doing rather than what your body is doing."
Personally, I am skeptical and think the golfer should focus a lot more on his body rather than the club. But that's mostly due to my experience with my swing so far and my intuition. My intuition is often very wrong, however.
At any rate, it seems like this is a hard question to resolve empirically. I'd love to see someone try, though.
This is actually an interesting argument. Here's the way I would re-phrase it: "if you want a lot more clubhead speed, you should focus on what the club is doing rather than what your body is doing."
Personally, I am skeptical and think the golfer should focus a lot more on his body rather than the club. But that's mostly due to my experience with my swing so far and my intuition. My intuition is often very wrong, however.
At any rate, it seems like this is a hard question to resolve empirically. I'd love to see someone try, though.
natep
New
What can help you personally is knowing that you are not supposed to be 'saving' hip rotation in the downswing so you can 'fire the fearsome foursome' to get max hip speed through impact.
It shouldn't be an objective because it's false and it's not happening in the best swings.
What I get from these graphs: The data seems to show:
The hips open to a point in the downswing.
Get them to or on their way to that point first so the torso/arms/club can get to where they need to be in position and velocity prior to impact.
But, there are people that don't believe in the kinematic sequence from proximal to distal and that is probably more of what the argument is about.
The hips open to a point in the downswing.
Get them to or on their way to that point first so the torso/arms/club can get to where they need to be in position and velocity prior to impact.
But, there are people that don't believe in the kinematic sequence from proximal to distal and that is probably more of what the argument is about.
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
Video explanation today....
Jared Willerson
Super Moderator
Hit the ball.
Some will do different things, everyone has to slow the hips to allow the clubhead to catch up. Spinning out is a tough ailment to overcome, and one that will never allow an athletic motion through the ball. Spinning out is what most people will do when they hear "keep those hips turning through the ball"
Turn them just enough to hit the ball as hard as possible (I'm talking full power shots). A golfer has only a certain optimal distance to get his or her body in position to hit the ball hard. A frontier of time and space, if you will. When rotating too fast, the golfer can't catch up and is not as efficient as he or she should be.
Sometimes I feel people do not define the parameters of the argument well enough. What type of golfer are we talking about? How does this apply to other types of golfers? In the meantime the argument gets bogged down and no one is exactly sure where the other is coming from.
I am tired of threads with enlightening information be ruined by arguments that do not have anything to do with what is being discussed.
Stream of consciousness over. Carry on.
Some will do different things, everyone has to slow the hips to allow the clubhead to catch up. Spinning out is a tough ailment to overcome, and one that will never allow an athletic motion through the ball. Spinning out is what most people will do when they hear "keep those hips turning through the ball"
Turn them just enough to hit the ball as hard as possible (I'm talking full power shots). A golfer has only a certain optimal distance to get his or her body in position to hit the ball hard. A frontier of time and space, if you will. When rotating too fast, the golfer can't catch up and is not as efficient as he or she should be.
Sometimes I feel people do not define the parameters of the argument well enough. What type of golfer are we talking about? How does this apply to other types of golfers? In the meantime the argument gets bogged down and no one is exactly sure where the other is coming from.
I am tired of threads with enlightening information be ruined by arguments that do not have anything to do with what is being discussed.
Stream of consciousness over. Carry on.
dschultz6072
New
If you want to swing the clubhead faster, then you do it. I don't know how else to put it. It's an athletic motion. Some people are better at it than others. Not everyone can be a home run hitter. Some have to settle for base hits, whether they want to believe that or not. It's interesting how in golf so many people think EVERYONE can somehow be "taught" how to hit the ball 300 yards or further. Nope. Sorry. Better get off that range and head to the short game area.
This kind of sheds some light to the whole "never been picked first on the playground" thing.
This kind of sheds some light to the whole "never been picked first on the playground" thing.
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Yes, to an extent. A golfer with suboptimal sequencing for them could add a few miles per hour by improving their sequencing. Only one part of the whole picture, though.
Ah, OK, so y'all do believe that it's possible to gain clubhead speed with certain body movements. The question is which movements are most effective at doing so at what point in the swing.
I'm speaking for myself as I interpret the information, so "ya'll" must refer to me and the mouse in my pocket
Brian is making a video to give his thoughts, so you can wait to see what he has to say as his official stance. An increase in clubhead speed was also shown in the Jim McClean sequencing graphs, right? He may already possess movements that are optimal for him so he just needed to tidy up the sequencing. There are a lot of posts on tumble and the forces on the club shaft, right? Is that not referring to body movements acting on the club? Please realize clubhead speed is only one part of the whole objective in delivering the clubhead to the ball, though.
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magicmarker
New
+1 dschultz
The body positions are just the means to an end (optimal clubhead delivery). I like M Jacobs advice on a similar concept that went something like this (paraphrasing)... 'don't worry about it, there just isn't enough time for that, you've got to start lining everything up for impact.'
It's a shame he went off the deep end. Before he got too big for his britches, he made some good contributions to the site.
Michael Finney
New
The "apples and oranges" defense has now been nullified and Jamie Sadlowski's hips are doing what 47not74 never could have imagined....
The reference frames are local for both the positional data and the rotational velocity data.......
Richie, was I right? - under 24 hours......natep, you can owe me
The reference frames are local for both the positional data and the rotational velocity data.......
Richie, was I right? - under 24 hours......natep, you can owe me
Brian Manzella
Administrator
I'll do a video tomorrow explaining all of this, but it is very basic stuff.
Is it "lab quality"? Heck no.
Is it honest attempt at running the numbers? Absolutely.
What does it show?
Well, to help the folks that will spend the time to look, it shows the deceleration portion of Jamie's swing.
It shows segments, damn near pixel perfect given what we had to work with (literally counting PIXELS by hand—so to speak), that are in .025 intervals of the entire Jamie decel phase from 9° open to 47° open which takes approximately 1/10th of second. So quarters of a tenth—0.025 of a second intervals.
Jamie's pelvis, in the first 0.025 of a second from the 9° open mark, open 13.3°.
The second 0.025 of a second, they open 10.4°.
The third 0.025 of a second, they open 7.8°.
The fourth 0.025 of a second, they only open 6.5°.
That's deceleration. Its in the graph. It has always been there. You just had to be honest and smart enough to look REALLY close.
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