Johhny Miller on Mike Weir

[jbrunk]

Did anyone else hear Johnny talking about Mike Weir's struggles with reverse pivoting and distance loss with the driver? He also said that "stack and tilt is fine for short and mid irons, but you have to get behind the ball with the bigger clubs" (paraphrased). Then Roger Maltbie commented that he has been working on getting behind the ball more and has been hitting the driver a lot further. Who knew?


Stack and Tilt..........................Uh..Buh Bye!



Johnny also said that Mike needed to get more behind the ball by pivoting around his head.


It is amazing what you pick up on with the golf swing when you are constantly exposed to the truth.

 

[jeffy]

Funny you should mention that, because over the weekend I was looking at a driver sequence of Johnny Miller from the early seventies and he had as much targetward lean at the top as anyone I've ever seen, way more than Weir. He looked like a stack & tilt poster boy.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Funny you should mention that, because over the weekend I was looking at a driver sequence of Johnny Miller from the early seventies and he had as much targetward lean at the top as anyone I've ever seen, way more than Weir. He looked like a stack & tilt poster boy.

Yup, JM did do the S&T and didn't play very well when he did. The S&T promoters like to use a sequence of him showing this very move but forget to mention how he didn't play his best golf this way.

 

[larryhen]

I dont know what stack and tilt is, but i was at the tournament this weekend and I noticed Mike Weir looked different from the others ..all his weight goes to his forward leg when he does his pre-shot routine take away..however i took some pics and his post impact is what i think Brian wants me to do.

 

[JonWil]

Yup, JM did do the S&T and didn't play very well when he did. The S&T promoters like to use a sequence of him showing this very move but forget to mention how he didn't play his best golf this way.

Right on Jim

 

[Brian Manzella]

Yuck.

You can lean any way you want to at the top. But, at impact you'd better be leaning away from the target about 30 or 40° unless you want to break your shaft in half.

I teach many golfers—who nned it, of course—to have a steeper shoulder turn, and less lean-away at the top.

But...NONE these golfers are keeping their head dead still in the middle of their feet or moving their heads forward.

Johnny Miller started reverse pivoting in the very early 70's as he got taller (he was a very late grower) and hit some very famous shanks. He fixed it somehow, and by 1974, he hit it "as good as anybody who ever laced them up." (A Jack Nicklaus quote)

I posted the '71 and '74 differences up several times on this forum.

Miller went very bad in '77 and '78, and was fixed by none other than Jimmy Ballard.

Miller knows FIRST HAND how bad all that left lean can be.

Thank you very much.

 

[jeffy]

I remember the shank at Pebble Beach; saw it live on TV as a young teen: he said he was experimenting with an "Arnold Palmer finish" or something...

The statements that Miller hit it terrible in the '70's don't square with my recollection. In fact, I recall J. Miller getting a little huffy when Nicklaus said in the mid-'70's that Miller had to "learn how to chip and putt to survive when he first came on tour". Miller said that was nonsense, and that he probably averaged 16 or 17 greens per round at that time. Finished second in the 1971 Masters, as I recall.

Anyhow, I found in the archives the thread where Brian compares the early '70's Miller to the '74 Miller. The early '70's Miller is hitting a mid-iron, the '74 Miller is hitting a driver. Although the upper body leans left a bit in both photos, with the driver the '74 Miller is well behind the ball, which I guess Brian likes better.

There is a sequence of Miller hitting a driver in "Square-to-Square Golf in Pictures" that is from the early '70's (the book was published in '74). Miller is a little more centered then in 1974, but not more than an inch or so, and is still well behind he ball. I want a recount.

Also, I've seen videos of Hogan hitting irons where he gets much further left at the top compared to the driver. I'd like to see that comparison with Brian's commentary, as well as a similar comparison of Snead.

 

[bendet3]

I think that it is good to remember that what a golfer says he is trying to do and what he is actually doing can be 2 very different things. It could be that Mike just needed to feel like he was leaning right at the top when in reality he wast just keeping himself from leaning too far left. I know from watching his unique waggle ( which I assume he does as "dry run" for his actual backswing) that his actual backswing is not the same as that waggle. He's probably going based on "feels". Whatever, it worked great for him at the President's Cup.

 

[jew]

I must agree with bendet

 

[Brian Manzella]

**Sigh**

The statements that Miller hit it terrible in the '70's don't square with my recollection.

I said:

"Johnny Miller started reverse pivoting in the very early 70's as he got taller (he was a very late grower) and hit some very famous shanks."

He did. Period.

I said ZERO about him hitting it bad. He just went to the next level when he fixed his backswing pivot.

He did. Period.

The early '70's Miller is hitting a mid-iron, the '74 Miller is hitting a driver. Although the upper body leans left a bit in both photos, with the driver the '74 Miller is well behind the ball, which I guess Brian likes better.

Here is both Trevino and Miller from about the same two "moments in time"

The old thread is a PERFECT EXAMPLE of an expert debating non-experts who have an "ax to grind."

This one is similar.

There is a sequence of Miller hitting a driver in "Square-to-Square Golf in Pictures" that is from the early '70's (the book was published in '74). Miller is a little more centered then in 1974, but not more than an inch or so, and is still well behind he ball. I want a recount.

I have the "Square-to-Square" book and sequence as well.

This brings up VERY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS!!!

How much lean, which way is the lean, and WHERE is the lean???

In the "Square-to-Square" sequence, Miller is leaning left, but he is SOoooooo far behind the ball, you COULD NOT call it "stacking."

No way. Period.

I've seen videos of Hogan hitting irons where he gets much further left at the top compared to the driver. I'd like to see that comparison with Brian's commentary, as well as a similar comparison of Snead.

Hogan.

the 1948 pre-wreck footage of Hogan hitting a driver, and the much older "hitting into the ocean" footage, should END all of the "what Hogan did on a really full shot.

Of course, if I were selling Hondas, I wouldn't want my clients to test drive Maybach's first.

 

[JeffM]

Brian - what's your definition of "leaning left".

Do you think that Miller is leaning left in any of these two photos?

I placed two red dots over the likely position of the lowest lumbar vertebra and the lowest cervical vertebra and I can see NO evidence that the highest dot is left of the lowest dot. Also, I placed a green line through the center of Miller's head and it is BEHIND the center of the stance and BEHIND the lowest swing center (midway between the hips) suggesting that Miller has slight rightwards lean.

Don't you think that many people think that a person is leaning left because they are looking at the shoulder blades, and when the shoulders turn >90 degrees, the prominence of the shoulder blades gives a false "impression" of left-leaning?

Jeff.

 

[tongzilla]

whoa...comparing iron swings with driver swings.

 

[jeffy]

I said:

"Johnny Miller started reverse pivoting in the very early 70's as he got taller (he was a very late grower) and hit some very famous shanks."

He did. Period.

I said ZERO about him hitting it bad.

Hey, old buddy, not every comment is directed (solely) towards you: Jim K said this about Miller in the early '70's: "Yup, JM did do the S&T and didn't play very well when he did." Well, in 1971, wee Johnny won one event, finished T2nd at the Masters, and T5th at the US Open; in 1972 won the Heritage and finished 7th at the US Open; and won the US Open in 1973 with the final round 63.

 

[JeffM]

I recently wrote a paper on different types of centralised backswings,and I coined the term "leftwards-centered backswing" and rightwards-centered backswing." I now think that there are golfers, like Johnny Miller, whose centralised backswing is intermediate between leftwards-centered and rightwards-centered and I will call it vertical-centered.

Consider a comparison between Mike Finney's backswing and Johnny Miller's backswing. Both golfers golfers have a centralised backswing - which I define as a torso pivot-rotation where the torso remains within the vertical limits of both inner feet. However, Mike Finney has a rightwards-centered backswing.

In this image, note that Mike Finney has a slight degree of rightwards spinal tilt at address. During the backswing, he keeps his head perfectly stationary and he ends up with a rightwards tilt of his upper torso and spine at the end-backswing position. Why does that occur?

This is my anatomical explanation. At address, Mike Finney has a slight rightwards spinal tilt due to tilting of the thoracic and cervical spine to the right. The lumbar spine cannot rotate or tilt (because of inbuilt anatomical constraints) so it has to remain centrally-oriented if the pelvis is horizontal and square to the ball-target line. The next diagram depicts Mike Finney's spine position at address (see rightwards-centered backswing) - his spine is slightly tilted to the right and his head is BEHIND the center of his stance.

Then consider what happens to the spine during the backswing pivot action.

When the pelvis pivots in the backswing, the right pelvis/buttocks moves rearwards and leftwards, and that causes the lumbar spine to become oriented to the right. Because the lumbar spine cannot rotate/tilt, the entire lumbar spine must acquire a rightwards tilt. Because Mike Finney's head has remained stationary during the backswing, his thoracic spine becomes straight-in-line with his lumbar spine, so that his ENTIRE spine appears STRAIGHT with a slight rightwards tilt (see diagram above).

I don't have a back-view of Mike Finneys' swing so I will use Nick Faldo as an example of a rightwards-centered backswing swing style golfer.

Note that Nick Faldo's ENTIRE spine is straight and that it has a slight rightwards tilt at the end-backswing position.

Now consider what happens to a golfer who has a vertical-centered backswing swing style. Let's presume that his spine has a very slight rightwards tilt at address, although the lumbar spine remains vertical (for reasons already given). During the backswing pivot action, the lumbar spine has to acquire a rightwards tilt (for reasons already given). However, the degree of rightwards tilt is going to be less in Johnny Miller's swing because he tilts his pelvis more during the backswing.

Note that Johnny Miller allows his right leg to straighten during the backswing and that the right thigh is consequently leftwards-inclined. Note that his pelvis is tilted (right pelvis-up and left pelvis-down). Note the buckling-in of the left knee due to the fact that the left pelvis is lower than the right pelvis. The effect of this pelvis tilt on the lumbar spine is to DECREASE the rightwards tilt that the lumabr spine naturally acquires during the backswing pivot action. That means that the lumbar spine will be near-vertical at the eend-backswing position. Then, when Johnny Miller rotates his shoulders >90 degrees during the backswing, his thoracic spine is torqued leftwards so that it is more vertically-aligned with the lumbar spine to create a spinal axis that is near-vertical. That accounts for the fact that the two red dots in the photo are vertically stacked-over each other at the end-backswing position.

What do you think of my anatomical explanation?

Jeff.

 

[jeffy]

Jeff Mann-

Interesting, as always, but if Johnny Miller is "vertical" in your parlance, WHO plays "leftward"? Sasquatch?

 

[JeffM]

Jeffy

A golfer would have a leftwards-centered backswing if he perfectly mimiced the end-backswing position of the golfer in this photo.

If a golfer leans over the left leg at the end-backswing position, so that the torso has a distinct leftwards tilt and the left side of the head is in FRONT of the center of the stance - then that represents a leftwards-centered backswing.

Here is an example of a leftwards-centered backswing.

Image 3 shows the golfer at the end-backswing position - note that he leans on the left leg, and that the left side of his head is in FRONT of the center of the stance.

Interestingly, I have never seen a swing video of Mike Bennett (originator of the S&T swing) hitting a driver to know whether he uses a leftwards-centered backswing for driver shots.

Jeff.

 

[jeffy]

Those are from the rear, needless to say. I'd like to see Mike and Mike from the front compared to Miller (on actual swings, not poses) and see how much difference there is. I know McNary has some decent face-on clips on-line.

 

[puttmad]

Jeff,
Don't know whether I agree with your pelvic movement...you have made the center of rotation the "a-hole"....
If you do the "stand with your butt against a wall" drill, the right pelvic region doesn't drop back as much as you indicate, but the left hip rotates around the posted right leg...
That means the "a-hole" will describe a small circle, being further away from the "wall" at the top of the backswing....

 

[Brian Manzella]

Easy...

If your TORSO leans left, you are a "left leaner," for example: 10° of right torso tilt.

If your TORSO leans right, you are a "right leaner," for example: 10° of right torso tilt.


If it does neither, you are "neutral," or 0° of side torso tilt.

Any of these leans, can take place well to the right—behind the ball, or well to the left—in front of the ball, or they can take place some where in the middle.

Get it?

The torso also rotate, it has a certain amount of forward bend, and it can bend somewhat in the middle to change shoulder plane lines.

Cool?

Now, Jeffy is a big fan of a teacher who teaches most to have a very centered backswing pivot, so—of course—his preference is toward centered. No biggie.

I teach what works. Some folks need right side lean at the top, some don't. Some folks need FLAT shoulder turns going back. Some don't.

Some folks need to be more centered, some don't.

The MANZELLA MATRIX, not a one-pattern system.

Jeff Mann needs to spend a week watching me teach, and then he would really be able to understand how all of this works. He could then write a good book, but I'd have to sue him.

 

[jeffy]

Now, Jeffy is a big fan of a teacher who teaches most to have a very centered backswing pivot, so—of course—his preference is toward centered. No biggie.

Not correct at all; you insult me. I appreciate that a centered spine is "steeper" than one tilted to the right, so a centered spine can help the player that tends to get too shallow, someone with a flat armswing, for example. A right-tilted spine works well for a player that has a steep swingplane, like Kenny Perry. Telling Kenny to stay centered would be a catastrophe. BTW, I can't name a player that leans left more than a smidge.