Lag, Release, Clubhead Speed, Swing Direction, Angle of Attack, Clubface, etc.

[welshdentist]

May I ask what is the object of the scientific investigation of the swing? Who will be the beneficiaries?

All jokes aside, the object is to find the best information possible. The beneficiaries are golfer who apply this information to their game, or who find a teacher who is good at teaching the information.

I just thought the answers were a little obvious and the question was asked as if there was an agenda behind it.

 

[Kevin Shields]

This is one point that must be elaborated upon before I can believe it. I know, I know, who cares what I think....

I disagree because, some people cant create it enough to even have it to throw away. But for those who can create it should understand the feel of the concept of finding lag and getting rid of it asap.

 

[birly-shirly]

What are you skeptical about when it comes to teaching new scientific ideas? The good teachers will always find a way to explain it in the simplest terms.

Kevin - sceptical in the sense of wanting evidence, not in the sense of not believing that it can be done.

Brian's original post sets the bar pretty high.

"How a given golfer is doing all of this can ONLY BE DETERMINED by "doing the math."


You CAN NOT figure this out looking at MOVEMENT PATTERNS."

I think it's reasonable to ask how this can be brought to the practice tee. If you can explain the maths in simple terms (which I would take to mean movement patterns) and teach it, then that's obviously a good thing. But that didn't seem to me to be what Brian was saying.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Gotcha

 

[ausfreddy]

All jokes aside, the object is to find the best information possible. The beneficiaries are golfer who apply this information to their game, or who find a teacher who is good at teaching the information.

I just thought the answers were a little obvious and the question was asked as if there was an agenda behind it.

I'm just an old golfer whose best was decades ago and certainly I have no agenda. What I can't see is the benefit of a scientific breakdown of the golf swing. How is knowing the exact forces, vectors, whatevers going to help anyone hit the ball better? Will the teachers of the future need to be scientists rather than golfers?

 

[dschultz6072]

I'm just an old golfer whose best was decades ago and certainly I have no agenda. What I can't see is the benefit of a scientific breakdown of the golf swing. How is knowing the exact forces, vectors, whatevers going to help anyone hit the ball better? Will the teachers of the future need to be scientists rather than golfers?

No, just short game specialists and mental coaches.

 

[natep]

What I can't see is the benefit of a scientific breakdown of the golf swing.

How else can you cut through the BS and get to the truth?

 

[BertramSterling]

I think the point is to get to the bottom of the cause-effect problems in changing a golf swing.

To take a really basic example...as a total beginner you might try and hit the ball up in the air; scoop under it. And you hit it thin and along the ground. So, not understanding the problem, you try and hit *more* under it, and thin it even worse. Of course, we all know that contrary to this logic, you need to hit more on the downswing to make the ball go up.

Ok, obvious example...I know...but diagnosing some flaw in ball flight/contact with the incorrect information leads to the incorrect solution (flat left wrist anyone?). And if you say 'as a player I don't need to know this or that' then I agree, but you need to either find out by accident (and not know how you do it) or be told what to do by an instructor.
If you doubt this go to any driving range and witness people showing their friends how to fix their swing. And the typical result - indifferent or worse than the start.

 

[Robbohank]

Anyone here think that trying to go "normal" at impact was normal (in most good ball-strikers) before the release thread?

 

[dbl]

If you can count someone "not here"... one of my playing partners had NEVER heard of a flat left wrist.

In fact another one uses the slap release.

 

[Lifter]

All you have to know is what you are trying to do with the club.

"If you focus on your muscle movements, the club will take care of itself."

"If you focus on the club, your muscle movements will take care of themselves."

I'm skeptical about both sentences above.

 

[dschultz6072]

"If you focus on your muscle movements, the club will take care of itself."

"If you focus on the club, your muscle movements will take care of themselves."

I'm skeptical about both sentences above.

The first sentence...meh. The second sentence is more like it, but I'd say it's more like focus on the clubhead.

 

[bryan@nobackswing.com]

The champions of yesteryear managed to find what worked without any scientific input. Presumably, what the ball did told them everything they needed to know.

this kind of logic is dangerous. kind of like saying "someone, sometime back in history did something well. therefore all the improvements that have been made since then are of questionable import."

after playing with a trackman for a little bit, i realize the ball tells me some of what i need to know, but not nearly enough.

i wonder what the vegas line would be on a 36 hole match play deal between nicklaus in his prime and a guy from today, say luke donald. I'd bet donald if it was anywhere close to even money.

 

[Kevin Shields]

"If you focus on your muscle movements, the club will take care of itself."

"If you focus on the club, your muscle movements will take care of themselves."

I'm skeptical about both sentences above.

How would change these statements? What do you believe you should be focusing on? How do you think one can change their swing? Alot of people have tried to change their move for years and it always looks exactly the same.

 

[Martee]

Math…. Not sure why anyone would argue against the use of it to assist in UNDERSTANDING what is going on. It might take some convincing, a lot of education in some cases, but in the end Math will prevail as far as the UNDERSTANDING.

Clearly over the years there has been a relentless search to find ways and means to UNDERSTAND the golf stroke.

Technology advancements have been key to gaining a better UNDERSTANDING of the golf stroke. Granted some technology may have lead us astray, but even discovering what is not is just as valuable as discovering what is.

Without the technology and pseudo laboratory setting, I don’t see how golf instruction can be revolutionized that can result in a quantum leap in playing ability across the broad spectrum of golfers.

Translating the UNDERSTANDING to instruction, to practical application will be a daunting task which will need real world positive results amongst the masses to become the mainstay of golf instruction.

Access will be limited, be it qualified instructors or affordable qualified instructions. There will be no one size fits all though the underlying principles and fundamentals will more than likely be.

I hope I am wrong, but I don’t see the quantum leap coming, I don’t see technology being hauled out to every practice tee, I don’t see instruction without technology, which in itself will limit the impact this could possibly have to the golfing community. What good does a golf instruction book do, or a video or an article when you don’t have the tools (technology) to analyze and identify the parameters that then can be somehow translated back into the golfer’s swing?

Don’t take this as negative or against the Math or the Project, just haven’t been able to see how it will be applied to the masses. Must say I am sure some conventional golf wisdom will be over taken and maybe that is where the real pay off will be for the masses.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Alot of people have tried to change their move for years and it always looks exactly the same.

Because these people try to change something via what they feel, not via physics of the hard structure. Muscles are hardly controllable but they move enframed in the hard structure. If one sets the hard structure the desirable way, muscles will work inside the frames.
That's exactly why I started my researches on hard structure and not muscular/ligamental level as the majority of biomechanists (the second reason was the latter is much more time-consumming and requiring much deeper anatomical knowledge).

Cheers

 

[mjstrong]

How would change these statements?

Not to put words in Lifter's mouth (or in his reply box), but how about a little from column A and a little from column B?

I hate to sit on the fence like this, but I can't help but think that some people will benefit most from different focii (is that the plural of focus?).

I get what Brian is proposing, and can understand how trying to apply a certain force in a certain way can take care of a lot of what goes on in the swing. I do think that there will be a big advancement once these forces are understood, but have to think that there will always be a need for instructors customizing the information for their students.

 

[Lifter]

I think the reality is that golfers' needs change if they want their swing to continue to improve. I'm sure that at one point along the way, trying to do certain things with the club will be more effective than trying to do muscle movements. But I'm sure that at other points, trying to do muscle movements will be more effective than trying to do certain things with the club.

 

[hp12c]

How would change these statements? What do you believe you should be focusing on? How do you think one can change their swing? Alot of people have tried to change their move for years and it always looks exactly the same.

This is a good ? Im about to see an instructor and I will see what we need to change/add and see how long this takes. Im exicted and nervous.

 

[ej20]

Unless you are a young developing player,I think once your swing DNA is set,there is not much you can do to change it other than to tweak it a bit.You may have some success playing around with your swing on the range but during a competitive round,your natural swing DNA takes over.That's why so many complain about not being able to take their range swing to the course.People post their swings on the range but I rather see one during the middle of a competive round when they are playing golf and not golf swing.It could be vastly different and in most cases it is.