Lever Assemblies ..........
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Brian Manzella
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The REALLY FUNNY thing is ANYone saying there is a cult on THIS site.
...I just don't bring that out of people....I kinda wish i did...LOL!
...I just don't bring that out of people....I kinda wish i did...LOL!
Horton,
I'm not trying to shoot any messenger. To be honest, I could care less. You can post all your erudite stuff. In Brian's forum it's a free country. I'm just trying to figure out if you are sincere and genuine about trying to save TGM and Mr. Kelley from "shattin in the sheets," then why aren't you posting on the TGM forum? They have one. I'm sure they would welcome you. Why come here and get the natives restless? You're a smart dude. You know what you're going to get here.
Go over there and give them the lesson on how Mr. Kelley "shat the sheets on science" in your charming words.
Hey at the end of the day it's just golf. I'm just having fun and I hope you are as well. No hard feelings.
Really and truly, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year man! Wishing you and yours a safe and happy Holiday Season.
Regards,
Richard
Horton,
OK enough esoteria. I think you take terms and spin them even when you don't quite understand the meaning of the underlying concept.
Let's start with levers. There are three classes of levers. What class is the arm and where is the fulcrum?? Please be specific so that others can then relate to Homer's text.
OK enough esoteria. I think you take terms and spin them even when you don't quite understand the meaning of the underlying concept.
Let's start with levers. There are three classes of levers. What class is the arm and where is the fulcrum?? Please be specific so that others can then relate to Homer's text.
Has the idea occurred to anyone that Horton and Mandrin are one in the same?? Peter Dillard's writing style is different but possibly Dillard started as Horton and then Mandrin is playing his own advocate.
Bottom line: Truly a sad pair. Uninformed, and frustrated that they are not stealing the spotlight.
Bottom line: Truly a sad pair. Uninformed, and frustrated that they are not stealing the spotlight.
Fellas, fellas!!!
Your paranoia has obscured the real issues raised by me on this thread, namely Homers total screwup analysing the Lever Assemblies in TGM.
Doesn't that bother you and make you wonder if this guy Homer really knew what he was talking about concerning the golfswing?
You are following the writings of somebody who was uneducated and then foisted his beliefs on unsuspecting, naive and gullible golfers, who believed that something so complicated as TGM must be the Answer to their golfswing woes.
Do you ever have the feeling that you are being exploited because you are so ignorant?
Your paranoia has obscured the real issues raised by me on this thread, namely Homers total screwup analysing the Lever Assemblies in TGM.
Doesn't that bother you and make you wonder if this guy Homer really knew what he was talking about concerning the golfswing?
You are following the writings of somebody who was uneducated and then foisted his beliefs on unsuspecting, naive and gullible golfers, who believed that something so complicated as TGM must be the Answer to their golfswing woes.
Do you ever have the feeling that you are being exploited because you are so ignorant?
Ummm, Horton, if you don't know the difference (or sameness) between Fulcrum, Pivot Point, and Balance Point what makes you think you know more about Levers than Mr. Kelley? Those errors bother me and make me wonder whether you know what you're talking about, or whether I'm supposed to be naive and gullible enough to accept your rants as anything more than what they appear to be. You might want to correct your own mistakes before starting on Mr. Kelley's.
Here is some of Kuykendall's ideas on his new level system. This is where Horton gets most of his newer ideas on levers, motion, etc.
Jack discovered a new lever system for a golf swing, based on the action of a baseball player.
The following is from Jack Kuykendall web site, which you should check out. I will make comments in bold inside his statements. I will paraphrase some points.
Jack feels he made the “greatest physics discovery in the history of golf” that allows golfers to hit the ball further and straighter. And in just 30 days with his new training devise.
(See: http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/myths/leverpwr.htm)
thirty days is a long time. I have seen Yoda do this in less then 30 mins using Homer’s work.
The Traditional Golf Stroke use by golfers up til the time of the Kuykendell discovery- circa 1997. you have seen this new lever system swing all the time on the course since 1997
( see: http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/vidjack.htm)
Jack goes on to say about the old lever system that it was “ the optimum lever system used to generate clubhead speed has been a two lever system.” seems to be the lever system Homer uses- so how can it be so wrong??
With the Traditional Swing the first lever is the left arm (red-triceps; blue-forearms). The second lever is the club (green and black).
(see the pictures of it here: http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/myths/leverpwr.htm)
According to Jack: the physics principle is :
“1. A straight left arm-creating a lever the length of the left arm (26" to 36").”
“2. A delay of releasing the angle between the left arm and the shaft until the last possible fraction of a second before impact.” again- Homer’s Levers recognized by Mr. Kuykendall
Jack Kuykendall states: ” The positive of this system is that it is capable of generating very high clubhead speed.” Yes it does
Jack Kuykendall explains the negatives:
“ There are four main negatives to the traditional system.
First, accuracy is obtainable by less that 5% of the golfers who use it. The problem with accuracy is mainly due to the infinite degrees of motion in the left wrist during the swing. These infinite degrees of motion make it virtually impossible to consistently square the clubface at impact.
Jack has a problem with his left wrsit action as you will see later. Centrifugal Force squares the clubface nicely as many of us have experienced everyday.
”Second, major strain is placed on the back. With a five iron, there is over 8 times your body weight (as much as 1700 lbs) on the lower lumbar spine at the top of the backstroke and at the follow through.” I don’t know where the numbers come from?
”Third, there is major strain on the shoulder rotator cuff muscles. Injuries to the rotator cuff muscles are well documented. These injuries are caused by the straight left arm and the torquing of the upper body against the lower body during the backstroke. When you start the downstroke with the lower body, tremendous strain is placed on the left shoulder rotator cuff muscles”
Once again not documented- he may be correct- who knows?
“Fourth, the muscles that bring a straight left arm down during the downstroke are in an extremely disadvantaged mechanical position. The amount of torque provided is very limited. Therefore, the left arm is limited to a support function. Very nice. The left arm is a noodle, Jack
Here is what Jack Kuykendall writes about his discovery. I will be brief and highlight the key points. Jack did a great job- see the whole thing here: (http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/myths/leverpwr.htm)
This is all Jack’s wonderful words - I added the bold or underline type to key words:
”Because a straight left arm and a late delay are correct physics for the traditional version of a two lever system, I had not been looking for a different lever arrangement that might be even more effective. The discovery of an improved lever system happened while trying to cure a fault that the majority of amateurs possess - mainly, the bending of the back of the left hand (at the wrist joint) toward the outside of the left forearm as the clubhead goes through impact.</u> About a year ago, I built a device to restrict the left wrist from bending in any direction. whoa ! Jack had bad left wrist action- throw away. Homer teaches a flat left wrist at impact. Maybe if Jack followed the three imperatives...?
He goes on:
I believed that the left wrist must cock and form as large an angle as possible between the shaft and the left forearm in order to generate maximum clubhead speed.</u>
Got to love power accumulators- Jack and Homer agree.
This is where Jack strayed off the path and as any proud American- tried to re-invent the mouse trap. He goes on describing his new lever system that eliminates any and all extensor action:
You can see Jack's swing here: ( http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/vidjack.htm )
Jack ends with a description of the success he has with his new lever system and describers how it works: The urls I have posted will fill you in and where you might order the training aid.
After you look at the newly discovered lever system, as I have. Does the fact that you bend the elbow excessively to have a “longer lever” - really change it from a Form III lever at all? Fulcrum, force and weight are all in the same location. Maybe Jack failed to understand Homer’s two lever system, the primary and secondary, in the golf swing. They do use the same physics of mechanical advantage so I can't see how he missed that.
Jack didn’t re-write lever systems for golf he just change his machine parts. It’s a shame his followers fell for this. The Golfing Machine students and instructors wouldn’t. They would just see another approach with the same lever action. Shame that Jack K had a faulty left wrist.
Jack discovered a new lever system for a golf swing, based on the action of a baseball player.
The following is from Jack Kuykendall web site, which you should check out. I will make comments in bold inside his statements. I will paraphrase some points.
Jack feels he made the “greatest physics discovery in the history of golf” that allows golfers to hit the ball further and straighter. And in just 30 days with his new training devise.
(See: http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/myths/leverpwr.htm)
thirty days is a long time. I have seen Yoda do this in less then 30 mins using Homer’s work.
The Traditional Golf Stroke use by golfers up til the time of the Kuykendell discovery- circa 1997. you have seen this new lever system swing all the time on the course since 1997
( see: http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/vidjack.htm)
Jack goes on to say about the old lever system that it was “ the optimum lever system used to generate clubhead speed has been a two lever system.” seems to be the lever system Homer uses- so how can it be so wrong??
With the Traditional Swing the first lever is the left arm (red-triceps; blue-forearms). The second lever is the club (green and black).
(see the pictures of it here: http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/myths/leverpwr.htm)
According to Jack: the physics principle is :
“1. A straight left arm-creating a lever the length of the left arm (26" to 36").”
“2. A delay of releasing the angle between the left arm and the shaft until the last possible fraction of a second before impact.” again- Homer’s Levers recognized by Mr. Kuykendall
Jack Kuykendall states: ” The positive of this system is that it is capable of generating very high clubhead speed.” Yes it does
Jack Kuykendall explains the negatives:
“ There are four main negatives to the traditional system.
First, accuracy is obtainable by less that 5% of the golfers who use it. The problem with accuracy is mainly due to the infinite degrees of motion in the left wrist during the swing. These infinite degrees of motion make it virtually impossible to consistently square the clubface at impact.
Jack has a problem with his left wrsit action as you will see later. Centrifugal Force squares the clubface nicely as many of us have experienced everyday.
”Second, major strain is placed on the back. With a five iron, there is over 8 times your body weight (as much as 1700 lbs) on the lower lumbar spine at the top of the backstroke and at the follow through.” I don’t know where the numbers come from?
”Third, there is major strain on the shoulder rotator cuff muscles. Injuries to the rotator cuff muscles are well documented. These injuries are caused by the straight left arm and the torquing of the upper body against the lower body during the backstroke. When you start the downstroke with the lower body, tremendous strain is placed on the left shoulder rotator cuff muscles”
Once again not documented- he may be correct- who knows?
“Fourth, the muscles that bring a straight left arm down during the downstroke are in an extremely disadvantaged mechanical position. The amount of torque provided is very limited. Therefore, the left arm is limited to a support function. Very nice. The left arm is a noodle, Jack
Here is what Jack Kuykendall writes about his discovery. I will be brief and highlight the key points. Jack did a great job- see the whole thing here: (http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/myths/leverpwr.htm)
This is all Jack’s wonderful words - I added the bold or underline type to key words:
”Because a straight left arm and a late delay are correct physics for the traditional version of a two lever system, I had not been looking for a different lever arrangement that might be even more effective. The discovery of an improved lever system happened while trying to cure a fault that the majority of amateurs possess - mainly, the bending of the back of the left hand (at the wrist joint) toward the outside of the left forearm as the clubhead goes through impact.</u> About a year ago, I built a device to restrict the left wrist from bending in any direction. whoa ! Jack had bad left wrist action- throw away. Homer teaches a flat left wrist at impact. Maybe if Jack followed the three imperatives...?
He goes on:
I believed that the left wrist must cock and form as large an angle as possible between the shaft and the left forearm in order to generate maximum clubhead speed.</u>
Got to love power accumulators- Jack and Homer agree.
This is where Jack strayed off the path and as any proud American- tried to re-invent the mouse trap. He goes on describing his new lever system that eliminates any and all extensor action:
You can see Jack's swing here: ( http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/vidjack.htm )
Jack ends with a description of the success he has with his new lever system and describers how it works: The urls I have posted will fill you in and where you might order the training aid.
After you look at the newly discovered lever system, as I have. Does the fact that you bend the elbow excessively to have a “longer lever” - really change it from a Form III lever at all? Fulcrum, force and weight are all in the same location. Maybe Jack failed to understand Homer’s two lever system, the primary and secondary, in the golf swing. They do use the same physics of mechanical advantage so I can't see how he missed that.
Jack didn’t re-write lever systems for golf he just change his machine parts. It’s a shame his followers fell for this. The Golfing Machine students and instructors wouldn’t. They would just see another approach with the same lever action. Shame that Jack K had a faulty left wrist.
Wrong again 6bee .... In fact, I learned all about levers from Homer's little chart in his yellow book. As for Jack K, now there is a real mental case of bitterness. Didja know that Jack K invented all his New Swings because he personally couldn't create any X-Factor between his hips and shoulders, so he had to concoct that Natural Golf swing and now his Power Lever arm swing? If you ever personally saw how Moe Norman swung the club, you would have seen somebody with no angular separation between hips and shoulders, and windmilling his driver (with the sole loaded with at least 1/4 inch of lead tape) around his short stout torso. NG swing is great for people who's hip joints and spinal column are rigid, which is 90% of all golfers worldwide .... but they still want to swing like the pros ... go figure .... why try to fit square pegs into round holes .... and that goes for golf too ... !!!!
Btw, I didn't bother to read all that stuff you posted .... too confusing for me ... sorry ....[|)]
6B, Huge contradictions in what JK says and does.
1st) He says you should retain angle til last second of golf swing, but, he's thrown it all away by 9 o'clock(hands about hip high)
2nd) He talks about the stress on the back applied by the traditional golf swing,then keeps his head and chin buried into his chest, until his right shoulder drives it up. A big No,No for your neck and back.
Between all the changes in elevations and throwaway that would have to go down as the most horrific swing I've ever laid eyes on.
1st) He says you should retain angle til last second of golf swing, but, he's thrown it all away by 9 o'clock(hands about hip high)
2nd) He talks about the stress on the back applied by the traditional golf swing,then keeps his head and chin buried into his chest, until his right shoulder drives it up. A big No,No for your neck and back.
Between all the changes in elevations and throwaway that would have to go down as the most horrific swing I've ever laid eyes on.
Sorry if I confused you, Horton. I know that is not easy to do but now I'm betwixted and befuddled. You learned about Levers from Homer? Is Homer correct in the three types and the location of the fulcrum, force and weight in each of them. I think a simply type three is like a fishing pole with a fish- kinda close to a holding and swinging a golf club, no? Tell me what Homer screwed up? Are there any levers in a golf swing, if so how to apply a lever for optimum mechanical advantage?
6bee -- I can only advise you to read and study my first post at the beginning of this topic. There you will find the full explanation of Levers and their application to the golfswing. Just understand that in rotatory movement, there are no actual levers, only radius arms rotating around a pivot point. If forces are applied to the radius arm, you transform it into a torsional force. Nothing gets levered, because a lever depends on a firmly grounded fulcrum.
You are thinking in terms of Flying Fulcrums, when there are no such things in a properly executed golfswing ... I think .... unless you consider the muscle insertions acting around a body joint as Internal Fulcrums .... What do you think ??
You are thinking in terms of Flying Fulcrums, when there are no such things in a properly executed golfswing ... I think .... unless you consider the muscle insertions acting around a body joint as Internal Fulcrums .... What do you think ??
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