Long Hitter - Very Little Lag

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ej20

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quote:Originally posted by Archie Swivel

My country club had a Calloway rep there yesterday with that device that tells your your ball speed, launch angle and spin rate. I hit like 30 drives and ball speed was in the 145-148 mph range almost ever time, with my highest at a cool 151 mph. However, spin rate was in the 4K's and launch angle was 7-9 degrees. I hit fairly long soaring driving that rose sky high late in the flight. Few questions: What can I do to achieve lower spin rate and higher launch angle? What are the tour averages for these stats? What is the average for non-tour hackers? Finally, can I deduce that by achieving 150 mph ball speed that I must have been obtaining some lag? I'm 5' 9", 165 lbs, small boned.
Heres what i dug up from an old '98 GD magazine...

Initial ball speed Tiger 180mph
Ave.tour pro 160mph
Ave.male amateur 128mph

Spin rate Tiger 2200 rpm
Ave.tour pro 3100
Ave.male amateur 3700

Launch angle Tiger 10-12 deg
Ave.tour pro 8-10
Av.male amateur 12+
 

Jim Kobylinski

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You need to raise your launch angle a few degress and get that spin rate waaaay down. "Usually" in my experience the wrong shaft is what causes big spin rates. ALSO...that is ASSuming that you were hitting the ball in the center of the face. Off hits create more spin.

Last time i was on a monitor i was like:

110ss
160ish ball speed
12-14 launch angle
2800-3000 spin rate

i carry the ball between 250-260 and usually the ball rolls out to 270-280.
 
lagster,

Yes, you are correct about those players using sweep releases, but even these cases meet the shaft parallel with hands at right thigh, although some just marginally do. So they have #2 lag, just not as much as available. The max delay, snap releasers such as those you mentioned, are well above horizontal with hands at right thigh.

I, too, have noticed that most of the new names seem to be max laggers, e.g. Zach Johnson. But it makes even more sense for amateurs, since the small pulley, snap release requires only ordinary hand speed, and provides extraordinary results.
 
MizunoJoe,

What drills, procedures, training aids, etc., have you found most helpful in helping golfers acquire better accumulator lag? I have had some success using a telescoping type device to help feel when the #2 accumulator releases, and with towel snapping drills, etc., but many people seem to have a very difficult time with this part of the swing.

I once filmed some golfers making baseball swings with baseball bats. Their accumulator lag was very similar to their golf swings in most cases. Some people just seem to inately have more accumulator lag, and have never thought about it.

I do remember one case... the person was about a 9 or 10 handicapper. The swing was on plane, but his #2 accumulator started to release at around waist high, and the impact condition had a little backward lean. He was, however, very loose wristed, and had soft hands and arms.

He understood what we were trying to acomplish, after seeing film of tour players with god lag, and releases. We started with short shots, and worked up each week to gradually longer shots. He said he worked with the telescoping device(like a child's sword), and the towel drill at home. When practicing, he hit a lot of knock down shots.

After about 6 to 8 weeks he had gotten his accumulator lag to around a tour player level, and his impact had forward lean. He picked up about 2 clubs on his irons, and picked up about 20 to 30 yards on his driver. He was the best at changing this that I can recall.

The soft arms and hands, and loose wristed-ness(not tight), along with athleticism, seemed to be the difference.
 
lagster,

This concept of max trigger delay, max lag snap releasing, it's understanding, and acquisition, can be quite a challenge. I believe that the real obstacle lies in the subconscience and it's determination to save the person from doing something it perceives as disastrous. I believe that this is a result of people thinking about the "in-line condition", and their attempt to sense it. The player must train himself to do something which seems almost outrageous, and yet when done will lead to exactly the desired result. To do this he must disregard all his normal intuitions. The best mental imagery that I have found is that of imagining the club as a large dart, and that the objective is to pull the dart DOWN and through the inside corner of the ball. The clubhead is the feathered end and passes through the ball only after the point(butt of the grip) does. I agree that a certain softness is required especially in the right forearm and the left(cocked) wrist. A frozen, bent, level right wrist is required. The crucial thing is that the effort to pierce the ball must continue until the anatomical limitations cause the snap release, and even then the effort must continue. The tendency is for the subconcious to panic and "do something" before the motion is complete. The effort must be DOWN on plane and there must ne NO TARGETWARD effort.

That's great work you did with this receptive student. The telescoping device seems promising, and perhaps something you could even market. The device which I have is a short, weighted club which clicks when sufficient clubhead speed is attained. It's called a "Swinger Kerdad" and I bought mine over 20 yrs ago. The problem with this is that it only works for a player who cannot get high speed any other way than maximizing #2 lag. It is adjustable and at it's highest setting it FORCES me to use max lag with snap release. Do a search on "Kerdad" to get the link. The telescoping device sounds even better though.

You're experiment with baseball swings is right on - certain people have built-in propensities. Years after my baseball career(amateur) was over, the pursuit of an efficient golf swing revealed that I had never really swung a bat very well, and could have generated MUCH more power! The nice thing is that average, otherwise ordinary players can DRAMATICALLY increase their power(and I claim accuracy as well) by overcoming their inate preferences with the help of lag-savvy instructors like yourself. The old notion that a powerful golf swing is the sole province of the "talented", like running speed or throwing ability is just plain wrong. It's a skill or knack which can be acquired through determination and only requires strength of mind.
 
I thought it was interesting in the book "Extraordinary Golf" that when players tried to throw the club down the fairway, they had increased lag as opposed to when hitting a shot. Instead of trying to "pull and hold" any angle, they were trying to get rid of the club hard and fast. Could this have something to do with the mind thinking when hitting a golf shot as opposed to the body reacting when throwing something?
 
The previous head pro at my club used this exact imagery of "throwing the club down the fairway". In fact, he would have the student actually do it. For several yrs I watched his students(he called them "works in progress"). None could hit an iron. In fact he gave lessons with the driver, saying, "you can fake an iron, but not a driver". Most of these victims wisely quit after 1 or 2 "lessons", but one man in his fifties lasted YEARS. This guy was obviously an athlete in his youth, was very fit, and doggedly determined. Every day he would drag himself off the range, head down and beaten like a dog. The next day he would be back though, sure that if he just tried a little harder this idea would work.

It wouldn't of course, and why? Because this will teach the player to hit FORWARD toward the target with the hands, instead of DOWN. It puts the aiming point somewhere on the horizon! The writers of "Extraordinary Golf" should read Brian's article, "May The Forces Be With You", so they can understand that the hands swing down, and the forward is supplied by rotation. This forward hand effort is the principle cause of a bent left wrist. Throwing the club down the fairway is even WORSE than Jimmy Ballard's model for the perfect golf swing - Bobby Knight throwing a folding chair across a basketball court in a raging fit.

I think throwing is fine as long as it's lag pressure being thrown DOWN toward the ground, and NOT "down the fairway".
 
So how about trying to throw the club down into the ball and trying to bury it in the ground?

Even though this is the exact opposite of pulling the club down or holding any angle.

P.S. I have never tried to move the club forward. It makes no sense. Golf is a hitting game just like baseball. The ball is the target. You hit the ball.
 
You can pull with the left hand, right hand, or both, with a bent, level right wrist. How is pulling the butt of the club toward the ground with the right hand different than throwing the club into the ground??? How is that "the exact opposite"??? If, on the other hand, you are talking about pushing the club through, then you are talking about a hitting procedure, and not a swinging action, which uses centrifugal force. If so, are you saying that a "throw" is a "push"? I was a pitcher, and a throw for me is a right arm pulling motion, similar to a javelin throw. Shot putting is a pushing motion.

"P.S. I have never tried to move the club forward. It makes no sense." I am confused, since you brought up "throwing the club down the fairway", I assumed you were endorsing it. You have to move the club forward to throw it down the fairway.

"Golf is a hitting game just like baseball."
That's true, IF you CHOOSE to "hit", rather than "swing". You can do either or both. I push(hit) the putter, and (currently) swing everything else. If you choose to swing, it's NOT true. By the way, did you know that you also have the choice of "swinging" or "hitting" with a baseball bat?

"The ball is the target. You hit the ball."
The question is what are you TRYING to hit the ball WITH? If you hit(push), it's the clubhead, if you swing with a max trigger delay, snap release, it's the butt end of the club.

Do you object to the max trigger delay, snap release swing as a choice over a sweep release swing, OR are you objecting to the choice of a swing over a hit? All three are VALID choices and are catalogued in TGM.
 
MizunoJoe,

Thanks for the information! The dart image sounds promising.

What have you found to best to PULL with, through the inside quadrant of the ball? The left shoulder, for example, if used to pull with might cause the downswing plane to steepen. Also, I think many people, probably because of their interpretation of Ben Hogan's book, are pulling with the left hip.

I do realize that one can also PUSH... with this, what have you found it best to push with? I also know that this is a somewhat tricky thing to know, because often what a person feels as if they are doing, is not actually what is happening.

I have seen many people, probably because of the subconscious activity you spoke about, have a difficult time even getting lag on a short chip.
Could this also be something do with a fear of not being able to square the clubface if they do something differently?

Also, it seems like The Flail--2-K, would be a good concept to understand for lag. Most people's in-line condition seems to occur much too early.
 
"How is pulling the butt of the club toward the ground with the right hand different than throwing the club into the ground???"

Throw, to me, is a push. When you throw, you move an object outward. To move something away from you, you have to push it. Throwing a baseball, football, javelin, dart, rock, etc. are all examples of pushing something away from you. Pulling is holding on to some angle (pull the club down) where throwing is trying to activly move it away from you. All other throws in sports use the dominant arm to get behind the object and push it. I, as a right hander, wouldn't get a baseball and try to strike someone out by pulling the ball toward them with my left arm. I would use my right arm (and body turn) to move the ball away from me as fast as I could. If an 18 handicap hacker who casted had a golf club in his hand and was attacked by a tiger, I bet his swing/hit, or whatever you want to call it, would look pretty textbook if he were to make a lash at the tiger where it looks awful if he is trying to hit a golf shot.

"I am confused, since you brought up "throwing the club down the fairway", I assumed you were endorsing it. You have to move the club forward to throw it down the fairway"

I wasn't endorsing it. I was just saying that it was interesting how the golfers in the test had casted or had little lag when hitting a golf shot, but had lag and good impact conditions when throwing a club and letting it go.

""Golf is a hitting game just like baseball."
That's true, IF you CHOOSE to "hit", rather than "swing". You can do either or both. I push(hit) the putter, and (currently) swing everything else. If you choose to swing, it's NOT true. By the way, did you know that you also have the choice of "swinging" or "hitting" with a baseball bat?"

However, hit or swing, the ball is still the target and you still must hit the correct part ball (I know, I know actually to an aiming point ahead of it, but the point still stands). In baseball, if the player hits or swing, the focus and attention is still on hitting the ball hard.

"Do you object to the max trigger delay, snap release swing as a choice over a sweep release swing, OR are you objecting to the choice of a swing over a hit? All three are VALID choices and are catalogued in TGM."

No, I don't object to any valid components and variations that work. I DO object to people saying that your swing sucks if you don't have a max delay snap release when it is painfully obvious that some of the best players in history don't swing this way. I also object when people say you have throwaway if you don't have max delay. Clubhead throwaway has nothing to do with how much angle you have. Clubhead throwaway occurs when you "throw away" clubhead lag pressure. Clubhead lag (and clubhead lag pressure) and your loading/release procedures are two seperate issues. Clubhead lag has nothing to do with accumulator lag, so max trigger delay and clubhead throwaway can't have anything to do with each other. Saying David Toms or Tom Watson have throw away because they don't have a Ben Hogan/Sergio Garcia max delay snap release is just off base and out of line.

Having said that, I am trying to get my hands farther forward and have more accumulator lag because those are the variations I want.
 
lagster,

As Homer told Yoda when asked what to pull with, and I paraphrase, "I don't care what you pull with, just pull". It doesn't matter, as long as the only force on the club is along the shaft and no force vector is applied perpendicular to the shaft. This means what you do with the right hand a very delicate matter(pun intended). And, a soft right side is important. If you're not sure what to do with the right hand, pull with it!

Pushing is a whole different animal, and isn't compatible with max trigger delay, snap release swinging. Pushers drive the club to the in-line condition with the right arm, mag #2 laggers let COAM do it all, and max trigger delayers let COAM do it in as short a time as possible.

Believe me, I have YEARS of experience with this subconscious fear thing. It goes much deeper than fear of the clubface not squaring up, but rather with the clubhead not coming anywhere remotely close to the ball. Of all combinations of components that I've tried, the max trigger delay, small pulley, snap release is THE most counterintuitive. I suppose this is why some protest it's very existence, much less it's teaching.

I recently attended a "Golf Show", complete with all the glitz. There were manuf reps, shops, etc. A former "Top 50" instructor had a booth hawking all sorts of stuff, including The Power Angle Pro. I played naive, and asked how it worked. I swung it up to the point of contact with the right shoulder, and then said, "so now I maintain contact with right shoulder and drive the right shoulder downplane - right?" "Oh no", Mr Top 50 said, "you must let the clubhead drop down immediately or else the clubface won't have time to square up". I said, "But wouldn't it be better to maintain contact and so retain the wristcock for more power?" He looked me up and down, and said, "Well yes, if you're STRONG enough to square up the clubface.", in a tone that implied that he was pretty sure I couldn't. As I walked off, he asked if I wanted to buy one, and I told him that I had, long ago, already perfected clubhead throwaway.

That observation about that premature in-line condition is right on. The fact that in-line happens so certainly, and so quickly, is the key to it's use and why delaying it's onset so profitable. And the SLIGHTEST amount of "forward" in the hands at the expense of "downward" will cause in-line to happen too soon.
 
mg,

I have never said someone's swing component choice is bad because it doesn't include a max trigger delay and snap release, nor did I mean to imply that! Watson and other sweep releasers with large pulleys get great results, and while they don't get max #2 accumulator, they do get a LOT. But to save it and snap release it, is to make the most efficient use of it.

My point is that any player has a choice available which can dramatically improve his power with a skill which doesn't require more than average strength or hand speed.
 
"I have never said someone's swing component choice is bad because it doesn't include a max trigger delay and snap release, nor did I mean to imply that!"

I wasn't necessarily saying you did, but the most common thought process on this forum is that anything other than max delay equals throwaway, which is just not true. I am also not certain that max delay will equal more speed or power...it may, but I don't see any proof of that. Tiger doesn't have the accumulator lag of some other players, but he is still longer than they are.
 
MizunoJoe,

Thanks for the information! This topic is very important. If golfers can get a grasp of this, and get the plane... well, they should improve quite a bit.

So... pull down--per 10-23-C and 10-24-E, while tracing the plane line with the right foerarm? If the right hand gets involved... improperly, i.e., in a forward direction, throwaway, or maybe even plane disruption will occur?

Please explain a little about the importance of COAM (CONVERSATION OF ANGULAR MOMENTUM) FOR MAXIMUM #2 LAG.
 
Lagster,

Yes, 10-24-E. Aim the butt at the inside corner of the ball, and deliver the dart in a straight line effort as if there will be no release, just like 10-24-E #1. Note that 10-24-E #2 happens so fast I don't sense it. The next thing I know I'm looking at a divot.

COAM causes the in-line condition, and, if you don't interfere, it gets it there faster. Also, if you get a bent left wrist, the same COAM causes the handle to move forward and the clubhead to back up, once more seeking the in-line condition, which is why a bent left wrist just kills clubhead speed.
 
"Aim the butt at the inside corner of the ball, and deliver the dart in a straight line effort"

MizunoJoe,
Aren't swingers supposed to move in an arc and hitters in a line?
 
mg,

There are 5 choices. 10-23-A and 10-23-C are straight line delivery paths, and 10-23-E is Circle. I usually use 10-23-A. Straight line paths are legitimate for both hitting and swinging.
 
Is it possible that some people's left wrist will simply cock more than others, thus allowing for greater #2 accumulator lag? The way a golfer is gripping the club is probably also a factor here.
 
Some guys have "tight" joints, but even these guys can get 90 degrees. So if they can get a zero leak motion, they can get a lot of #2 lag.
 
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