manzella academy: nha customized question

[dannyc]

i just finished watching nha2 again for the first time in a while. it looks alot like my current pattern, which i call the never block again pattern. very similar with a hip slide, up the wall takeaway and a down the wall, yellow brick road finish, with one major exception. i don't rotate the left arm wedge, i actually use a little twistaway.
the reason i do this is because i have diagnosed myself as an underplane flipper, i would often hit hooks, but the shot i hated almost as much was the high right...
anyone (kevin, maybe?) experimented with this?
i basically just try to eliminate the right side by playing a slight pull or draw. would this help the recent poster (holeout, i think) who struggled with pushes?

thanks

 

[Brian Manzella]

Custom.

I call (my own pattern) the never block again pattern. very similar to (NHA2) with a hip slide, up the wall takeaway and a down the wall, yellow brick road finish, with one major exception—I don't rotate the left arm wedge, I actually use a little twistaway.

Good for you!

Nothing wrong with this pattern, in fact, you could use "backswing twistaway" with any non-"backswing twistaway" pattern with good results, if you want a less open clubface to deal with.

Same thing would happen with the NHA2 pattern and a strong grip.

 

[birdie_man]

I have tried this one.

I've always thought it would be good to help someone who is a newish golfer (and probably a fairly natural player) who has a pretty good pivot and a too open clubface.

 

[Kevin Shields]

i just finished watching nha2 again for the first time in a while. it looks alot like my current pattern, which i call the never block again pattern. very similar with a hip slide, up the wall takeaway and a down the wall, yellow brick road finish, with one major exception. i don't rotate the left arm wedge, i actually use a little twistaway.
the reason i do this is because i have diagnosed myself as an underplane flipper, i would often hit hooks, but the shot i hated almost as much was the high right...
anyone (kevin, maybe?) experimented with this?
i basically just try to eliminate the right side by playing a slight pull or draw. would this help the recent poster (holeout, i think) who struggled with pushes?

thanks

It sounds to me like holeout just has what he thinks is a little block. Some D-Plane explanation and a Trackman tweaking would probably do it. Yes, I have definately experimented with this type of thing. I"ll use it as a last resort if the BPS comes back but am currently working on some more orthodox things to use this season.

 

[dannyc]

It sounds to me like holeout just has what he thinks is a little block. Some D-Plane explanation and a Trackman tweaking would probably do it. Yes, I have definately experimented with this type of thing. I"ll use it as a last resort if the BPS comes back but am currently working on some more orthodox things to use this season.

cool, i just remembered from your trackman thread that you were trying to "dribble" a little on the way back.
just can't bring myself to turn the face much to the plane right now because of my tendency to flip.

 

[curtisj76]

Same thing would happen with the NHA2 pattern and a strong grip.

Glad I saw this as I've gone a little stronger with my driver. Results have been good.

(Just thought I would "bump" this in case it could help someone else.)

 

[Bigwill]

Glad you did. I played with a pattern similar this (by accident, before I saw NHA), and played some of my best golf.

 

[GPM1985]

just can't bring myself to turn the face much to the plane

I'm sorry to thread-jack, but can someone explain what "turning the face to the plane" is? This has been bugging the hell out of me. Thanks.

 

[softconsult]

Turning the face to the plane. I would take that to mean keeping the face perpendicular to the shaft plane. This is in contrast to the commonly esposed face straight up in backswing when club is parallel to the ground. In other words, the face appears to be looking more down. I'm sure other's will clarify.

 

[pecky987]

Turning the face to the plane. I would take that to mean keeping the face perpendicular to the shaft plane. This is in contrast to the commonly esposed face straight up in backswing when club is parallel to the ground. In other words, the face appears to be looking more down. I'm sure other's will clarify.

exactly the opposite

turning the face to the plane means to turn and open the face 90* so that it matches and "lays" on the face of the plane, as opposed to staying "off" the plane with the face less open, say 60* open, and having the face at an angle to the plane

 

[Steve Greffen]

NSA has a perfect description and Brian explains it very nicely visually in that video. I believe that this is one thing that golfers and teachers alike don't understand well enough. Also the laying the face on the plane in the backswing can obviously influence the downswing but the amount that many amateurs leave the face laying on the plane during the downswing until the last possible second is even worse (the clubface is open to the path here) and casues that arm hand manipulation to square it up, or over the top or back on the back foot etc to get that face around. The videos I have of the tour pros have a noticeably closing face to the path coming into impact and are on plane coming into the ball. They don't hook it either as they rotate way better than Joe Amateur.



Steve

 

[dannyc]

nha/ball flight laws confusion

if you have a decent single digit golfer, is it normal to struggle with the right to rights when switching to an nha (less in to out pattern)?
the reason i ask is if you were used to starting the ball a little right to play a draw, according to the ball flight laws, the clubface must have been a little open.
so, if you couple that with the new down the wall, yellow brick road follow through, you are gonna get huge push fades, correct? and you would actually need a clubface that is more closed than the golfer used to play with (unless there normal shot was left to left)?

 

[savydan]

if you have a decent single digit golfer, is it normal to struggle with the right to rights when switching to an nha (less in to out pattern)?
the reason i ask is if you were used to starting the ball a little right to play a draw, according to the ball flight laws, the clubface must have been a little open.
so, if you couple that with the new down the wall, yellow brick road follow through, you are gonna get huge push fades, correct? and you would actually need a clubface that is more closed than the golfer used to play with (unless there normal shot was left to left)?

I think the initial confusion is concerning the reference point for open and closed clubfaces.

Since Trackman came into the picture, the reference point for clubface direction is relative to the Target Line - not the Clubhead Path.

So when we hit a Draw, the Clubface may be open to the Target Line, but it must be closed to the Path.

For NHA, the path is typically out to in, with a Clubface slighly open to its Path, but the Clubface may still be closed to the Target Line.

 

[fronesis]

Yes. And therefore, when dannyc says:

if you were used to starting the ball a little right to play a draw, according to the ball flight laws, the clubface must have been a little open

No. If you were playing a draw, then the clubface had to be closed relative to the path (otherwise it would never draw).

If you are hitting it "right to right" with NHA, then I have to wonder if you really needed NHA in the first place. Did you really hook the ball before, or just flip it? Brian says that NHA is designed for folks who can hook the ball at will. And therefore, the right to rights shouldn't be a problem for those folks.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

if you have a decent single digit golfer, is it normal to struggle with the right to rights when switching to an nha (less in to out pattern)?
the reason i ask is if you were used to starting the ball a little right to play a draw, according to the ball flight laws, the clubface must have been a little open.
so, if you couple that with the new down the wall, yellow brick road follow through, you are gonna get huge push fades, correct? and you would actually need a clubface that is more closed than the golfer used to play with (unless there normal shot was left to left)?

If you are getting the right to right shot you aren't nearly swinging left enough. The point of NHA is to get you (at least at the beginning) to hit a left to right fade.

 

[dannyc]

Yes. And therefore, when dannyc says:


No. If you were playing a draw, then the clubface had to be closed relative to the path (otherwise it would never draw).

gotcha, that makes sense. i meant open to the target, not the path.

If you are hitting it "right to right" with NHA, then I have to wonder if you really needed NHA in the first place. Did you really hook the ball before, or just flip it? Brian says that NHA is designed for folks who can hook the ball at will. And therefore, the right to rights shouldn't be a problem for those folks.

i guess i assumed the hook and the push right were the same path problem, just with different clubface positions...is that incorrect?
i can definitely hit a hook, and the other miss is a huge push/push fade. i assume i am swinging to far to the right. i agree that nha might not be the pattern of choice, but i definitely have some underplane issues, so it's a good video to watch for that.

 

[dannyc]

If you are getting the right to right shot you aren't nearly swinging left enough. The point of NHA is to get you (at least at the beginning) to hit a left to right fade.

i can hit it left to right, but when i do i get:
success: eight iron starts out five yards left and fades to target - driver starts pretty much at target and fades 5-10 yards.
failure: eight iron balloons then cuts - carries about 20 yards less than it should
driver: starts about 15 yards right then cuts more...

thanks for the help

 

[fronesis]

i guess i assumed the hook and the push right were the same path problem, just with different clubface positions...is that incorrect?
i can definitely hit a hook, and the other miss is a huge push/push fade. i assume i am swinging to far to the right.

Well, good question! That's a tough one to sort out - especially without video or trackman data.

A slight "straight push" could obviously be a path problem. But "a huge push fade" sounds to me like a clubface problem. So I suppose I'd want to make sure you were definitely able to control and close the clubface consistently, BEFORE taking up an NHA pattern that's designed to fix your path. If I understand Brian correctly, he fixes the path on hookers because they CAN square up the clubface. But when you hit a big push fade you are failing to square the clubface, not just swinging too far right.

How do you hit the ball if you try to use more of an NSA pattern?

 

[dannyc]

If I understand Brian correctly, he fixes the path on hookers because they CAN square up the clubface. But when you hit a big push fade you are failing to square the clubface, not just swinging too far right.

yeah, it's not that i can't. it's that i don't always, i guess.

How do you hit the ball if you try to use more of an NSA pattern?

pretty big hook with the shorter clubs...longer ones even worse.

 

[fronesis]

Well, I'm no expert, so it's not a surprise that you've stumped me!

But it sounds to me like you are capable of missing it way left ("pretty big hook") AND way right ("huge push fade").

So you need a customized pattern that helps you control face and path.

My guess is that if you took a lesson from Brian he would very quickly size you up and figure out a plan to fix one and then the other, or somehow do both.

But in terms of "off the rack" patterns (NHA or NSA) and choosing them with diagnosis here, I think it would really have to be up to you and your own preferences.

So...

Can you use NSA but dial it back to keep you from hooking it?
OR
Can you use NHA but not get the clubface so open that you hit it well right?