Measuring Rate of Closure

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cwdlaw223

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Is there any device that measures the rate of closure of the clubhead throughout the swing?

If not, wouldn't one want to have an objective way to measure this aspect of the club head throughout the swing? It seems to me that having an objective way to measure the closure rate could help one better understand their swing and trying to "time" the club face and club path at impact.
 
mjstrong

mjstrong

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High speed cameras, positioned directly overhead, would provide a pretty good way to measure this.

I think that even the best machines out there right now are still "calculating" the clubface at impact. Even though their clubface measurements can be verified by high speed cameras, the launch monitors don't actually measure this variable.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
cwdlaw223 said:
Is there any device that measures the rate of closure of the clubhead throughout the swing?

If not, wouldn't one want to have an objective way to measure this aspect of the club head throughout the swing? It seems to me that having an objective way to measure the closure rate could help one better understand their swing and trying to "time" the club face and club path at impact.
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6° 3D systems, like the AMM, and the Motion Reality/TaylorMAde MATT system, which Damon Lucas now has installed at his Institute, can do this easily.

And accurately.

We will be publishing ALL SORTS of real-world examples in the next 3 months.
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
For now though, IMO, if you have a good high speed camera, you can see how long the face stays open late into the downswing setting up a high rate of closure......or not.
 
natep

natep

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If you can see slow motion video of your own swing in high quality, you should be able to discern whether or not you have a wide open clubface before impact.

If you do, then it would be fairly safe to assume that you have a higher rate of closure through the impact area than someone who has a neutral or "square to the arc" clubface.
 
natep

natep

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I'm not an instructor, but I would assume that if you could learn to not open the face so much on the backswing, you wouldnt have such a hard time closing it, and wouldnt have to worry as much about "rate of closure" issues.

I think part of it is just learned the hard way, through practice. You keep practicing until you're not spraying balls all over the place.
 
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footwedge

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natep said:
I'm not an instructor, but I would assume that if you could learn to not open the face so much on the backswing, you wouldnt have such a hard time closing it, and wouldnt have to worry as much about "rate of closure" issues.

I think part of it is just learned the hard way, through practice. You keep practicing until you're not spraying balls all over the place.
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Yeah, i agree, how else? eventually you have to try and apply that scientific explanation.
 
natep

natep

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I don't know.

I don't think any scientific explanation of anything is enough to make anyone a great golfer.

Even if you somehow knew everything there is to know about the science of the swing, you would still have to learn how to apply it and perform it consistently.

Hogan told Venturi that if he missed a day of practice, he would lose ground and it would take him three days to get back to where he was.
 
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Dan44GT

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cwdlaw223 said:
Is there any device that measures the rate of closure of the clubhead throughout the swing?

If not, wouldn't one want to have an objective way to measure this aspect of the club head throughout the swing? It seems to me that having an objective way to measure the closure rate could help one better understand their swing and trying to "time" the club face and club path at impact.
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SAM Putt Lab does a great job with this, I feel. I believe it is particularly helpful in putter fitting, if you haven't used a SAMPutt, it will give you face angle throughout the stroke and points out the face angle at 10cm before and after impact. When I look at those numbers, I dont care necessarily how high or low they are, just if they are fairly symmetrical. Tiger for instance has a VERY high amount of rotation through that zone and Loren Roberts has next to none, but they are symmetrical.

I too thought this would be a nice thing to have for full swing, although I would think off-center hits would make it difficult to get reliable data.
 
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ej20

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Some people can handle a greater rate of closure than others.....and no I don't have a scientific explanation for it.
 
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ej20

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In some extreme cases,you don't need a machine to determine rate of closure.......

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9neLhl2Ejdg?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9neLhl2Ejdg?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
 
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bax1865

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ej20 said:
In some extreme cases,you don't need a machine to determine rate of closure.......

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9neLhl2Ejdg?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9neLhl2Ejdg?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
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WOW.......C'mon Man!
 
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cwdlaw223

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Kevin Shields said:
cwdlaw23, this is a good question no matter what he says. Dont stop learning.
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Thanks. I'm just looking for an objective way to deal with the rate of closure. Eyeballing the closure rate works, but I want to be able to compare my rate with others and know if there is a baseline standard. For example, I could "eyeball" club path through video but that isn't nearly effective as the objective data provided by Trackman about club path. I suspect that knowing ones closure rate could better help with clubface control. Maybe I'm wrong and the rates change so much that it can't be controlled.
 
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GolfHappy

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cwdlaw223 said:
Thanks. I'm just looking for an objective way to deal with the rate of closure. Eyeballing the closure rate works, but I want to be able to compare my rate with others and know if there is a baseline standard. For example, I could "eyeball" club path through video but that isn't nearly effective as the objective data provided by Trackman about club path. I suspect that knowing ones closure rate could better help with clubface control. Maybe I'm wrong and the rates change so much that it can't be controlled.
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How would you go about changing your closure rate even if you knew what it was?


Poor golfers worry about closing the clubface, better golfers worry about keeping it open.

If you take the example above Chopra has the clubface open at the top because his left wrist is cupped, he flattens it on the way down which squares up the face for him, nothing more. He tries not to CLOSE the face at all by chasing the clubface down the line.... only problem is that if he rolls just a fraction that ball is going bigtime left. He's basically trying NOT to close the clubface.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
GolfHappy said:
How would you go about changing your closure rate even if you knew what it was?


Poor golfers worry about closing the clubface, better golfers worry about keeping it open.

If you take the example above Chopra has the clubface open at the top because his left wrist is cupped, he flattens it on the way down which squares up the face for him, nothing more. He tries not to CLOSE the face at all by chasing the clubface down the line.... only problem is that if he rolls just a fraction that ball is going bigtime left. He's basically trying NOT to close the clubface.
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GolfHappy,

You know every buzz word of your preferred method! Cool.

The fact is some golfers REVERSE the normal clubface-to-plane rotation in their swing—at one or more than one place in their swing.

If you saw a 3D representation of the WHOLE SWING of ANY GOLFER, you'd be surprised at what the face is doing.

So, some golfers NEED more closure. And it more than you think for almost anybody.

"We don't see anything like angled hinging..." —Paul Wood at Anti-Summit I, talking about how much the clubface rotates during the last half of the downswing and through the ball.​
 
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cwdlaw223

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GolfHappy said:
How would you go about changing your closure rate even if you knew what it was?


Poor golfers worry about closing the clubface, better golfers worry about keeping it open.

If you take the example above Chopra has the clubface open at the top because his left wrist is cupped, he flattens it on the way down which squares up the face for him, nothing more. He tries not to CLOSE the face at all by chasing the clubface down the line.... only problem is that if he rolls just a fraction that ball is going bigtime left. He's basically trying NOT to close the clubface.
Click to expand...

The same way I try to change my club path during a Trackman session, through practice! The rate of closure is part of the "timing" of the golf swing and having good feedback while I practice is crucial. I suffer from hooks and my club face closes very quickly (in addition to an in to out path). "Very quickly" isn't good enough for me in trying to improve and understand my swing. I want objective data.

If Chopra is going bigtime left its because of the intersection of his club path and face.
 
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