Measuring Rate of Closure
- Thread starter cwdlaw223
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softconsult
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"Because those that want to take their game to the next level need proper/detailed feedback to change their games. I'm sure that some can eyeball their errors, however, why waste time with such a slow method of change. Trackman is incredible and has changed my game for the better. It's all about feedback and I want more!!!! "
I agree with the feedback idea. The problem is that the feedback machines are few and far between. Wanting more, implies that obtaining more and more technical data will improve your swing or take it to the next level (whatever that means ). Some of us would submit that it knowing your closure rate will prove less than useful.
Just my reaction.
I agree with the feedback idea. The problem is that the feedback machines are few and far between. Wanting more, implies that obtaining more and more technical data will improve your swing or take it to the next level (whatever that means ). Some of us would submit that it knowing your closure rate will prove less than useful.
Just my reaction.
Supppose you wanted to find the right swing for you, and you knew that the rate of face closing was an issue, and you wanted one with a good match for you. So you develop 3-4 swings.
Opening face with lots of roll to close
Closed face with minimal roll
moderate face with late fast roll
moderate face with continuous roll
Would having a machine that measured face closing rate help you? Could you finetune those swings without a machine?
I think getting on a machine and confirming something about when you were closing too late or too fast or too slow would be fine. But then I also think you wouldn't need the machine for 1000's of hours.
Opening face with lots of roll to close
Closed face with minimal roll
moderate face with late fast roll
moderate face with continuous roll
Would having a machine that measured face closing rate help you? Could you finetune those swings without a machine?
I think getting on a machine and confirming something about when you were closing too late or too fast or too slow would be fine. But then I also think you wouldn't need the machine for 1000's of hours.
I'm looking for objective criteria about the rate of closure (as initially stated). Everyone keeps talking about the rate of closure without any real reference point and we speak in general terms (which isn't that useful). I don't know what criteria would be used to define the rate of closure (hence my initial question if a machine exists).
I don't believe that feedback machines are few and far between. Trackman, AMM, MATT, Flightscope, etc. The machines are getting better and we now know that "impact" conditions vary greatly despite what a video camera or picture shows.
I submit that I want the chance to know whether this information will prove useful or not before concluding that it isn't. I'm sure there were plenty who thought that Trackman wasn't necessary, but that machine has changed golf forever.
I don't believe that feedback machines are few and far between. Trackman, AMM, MATT, Flightscope, etc. The machines are getting better and we now know that "impact" conditions vary greatly despite what a video camera or picture shows.
I submit that I want the chance to know whether this information will prove useful or not before concluding that it isn't. I'm sure there were plenty who thought that Trackman wasn't necessary, but that machine has changed golf forever.
I agree which is why I posted "How would you go about changing your closure rate even if you knew what it was?"
Not many people have access to the kind of feedback required and for the majority of golfers I have to ask literally WHAT IS THE POINT?
Fair enough, if you have gotten your h/cap down to 2 or 3 then perhaps you can start work on the finer points but other than that I think it's more important simply to learn to hit the ball!
I can shoot pretty low and frankly I don't care what my closure rate is................ but I'll keep an open mind too
S
SteveT
Guest
The erroneous assumption being made on this topic of conversation, is that some think they can manipulate the clubhead with conscious hand action within the duration of the downswing prior to Impact.
I win a lot of bets playing against such 'thinkers'. ...
Hey, GolfHappy ... if we played a round, who do you think would win ... your unconscious artistry, or my unconscious science ...???!!!!!
I win a lot of bets playing against such 'thinkers'. ...
Hey, GolfHappy ... if we played a round, who do you think would win ... your unconscious artistry, or my unconscious science ...???!!!!!
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SteveT, why do you poopoo face manipulation in the downswing? Duval and Hogan did those things totally differently.
Are you saying high handicappers can't, or are you focusing just on an interval very close to impact?
Besides, if one swings SLOW ENOUGH all kinds of face manipulation can happen.
Are you saying high handicappers can't, or are you focusing just on an interval very close to impact?
Besides, if one swings SLOW ENOUGH all kinds of face manipulation can happen.
I agree which is why I posted "How would you go about changing your closure rate even if you knew what it was?"
Not many people have access to the kind of feedback required and for the majority of golfers I have to ask literally WHAT IS THE POINT?
Fair enough, if you have gotten your h/cap down to 2 or 3 then perhaps you can start work on the finer points but other than that I think it's more important simply to learn to hit the ball!
The point is face control. If you control the face and the path you're potential is limitless.
The erroneous assumption being made on this topic of conversation, is that some think they can manipulate the clubhead with conscious hand action within the duration of the downswing prior to Impact.
I win a lot of bets playing against such 'thinkers'. ...
Hey, GolfHappy ... if we played a round, who do you think would win ... your unconscious artistry, or my unconscious science ...???!!!!!
So you have no conscious control of your swing and this game is purely reactionary?
S
SteveT
Guest
SteveT, why do you poopoo face manipulation in the downswing? Duval and Hogan did those things totally differently.
Are you saying high handicappers can't, or are you focusing just on an interval very close to impact?
Besides, if one swings SLOW ENOUGH all kinds of face manipulation can happen.
Good points ... but what you don't understand is that applying conscious thought in a fast kinetic chain like the downswing is very risky ... and injecting thoughts into your downswing will slow it down and reduce your kinetic energy generation.
Think or thwing ....
S
SteveT
Guest
How do you control the face and path in a downswing? With your hands?.. arms?.. shoulders?.. torso?.. hips?.. legs?.. feet?.. all of the above?????
Potential energy is not the same as kinetic energy ... and the golfswing is kinda kinetic ....
I have conscious and non-conscious control of my swing ... how's by you ...???
gmbtempe
New
Good points ... but what you don't understand is that applying conscious thought in a fast kinetic chain like the downswing is very risky ... and injecting thoughts into your downswing will slow it down and reduce your kinetic energy generation.
Think or thwing ....
Isn't the idea that you practice the mechanics so that you get them ingrained into your swing pattern............who thinks about these during their swing, how would you do that?
S
SteveT
Guest
Hey .. that's what I'm asking too ... but most of the internet golf pros don't seem to differentiate between conscious and non-conscious ... they seem to think they can simply dial in a 'rate of closure' to solve their banana slices...
That is a huge,huge if.
Hey .. that's what I'm asking too ... but most of the internet golf pros don't seem to differentiate between conscious and non-conscious ... they seem to think they can simply dial in a 'rate of closure' to solve their banana slices...
I don't think it's a matter of dialing in a rate of closure for any given shot.Nobody is that good.
It's a matter of diagnosing a rate of closure that is too great which can start to be problematic.Daniel Chopra for example keeps his clubface very open very late into his downswing which requires a high rate of closure to square up.This is difficult to do consistently even for a touring pro.
softconsult
New
"I don't believe that feedback machines are few and far between"
I wish you were correct, but I submit they are few and far between.
I really mean that, for me and others, who do not have a Trackman
within a distance that would allow some regular use, then it's not
practically available.
All you have to do is go on Trackman's website and find the locator. Zoom in a couple of times and you will see the problem. Looks to me like somewhere under 60 units listed in the states. Go on Flightscope's website. There is no locator.
I wish you were correct, but I submit they are few and far between.
I really mean that, for me and others, who do not have a Trackman
within a distance that would allow some regular use, then it's not
practically available.
All you have to do is go on Trackman's website and find the locator. Zoom in a couple of times and you will see the problem. Looks to me like somewhere under 60 units listed in the states. Go on Flightscope's website. There is no locator.
S
SteveT
Guest
Exactly ... because consciously altering your rate of closure during the downswing requires you activate the muscles in your arm or even your shoulder and torso to supinate your lead hand. If you want to influence the rate of closure with your rear hand, that means you must adjust a ballistic action.
You can preset your Address hand position to influence your clubface at Impact ... but to adjust it on the fly is a {{{DEATH}}} move ... believe it.
Also I believe you can change face at Impact with your style of clubhead ... i.e. the position of the leading edge in irons.
We want the answers, dammit!!
(Although we're not exactly sure what the questions are.)
1. Is there a Rate of Closure (RoC) that is more significant than others? i.e. Is it more important to know RoC at impact (degrees per unit time), or RoC leading up to impact (degrees per linear foot)? If the latter, where are the start and end points?
2. Does club/ball collision affect RoC significantly?
3. Does RoC after impact matter?
4. Is there any statistical data that relates Dispersion vs. RoC?
5. What are the biomechanical influences on RoC?
(Although we're not exactly sure what the questions are.)
1. Is there a Rate of Closure (RoC) that is more significant than others? i.e. Is it more important to know RoC at impact (degrees per unit time), or RoC leading up to impact (degrees per linear foot)? If the latter, where are the start and end points?
2. Does club/ball collision affect RoC significantly?
3. Does RoC after impact matter?
4. Is there any statistical data that relates Dispersion vs. RoC?
5. What are the biomechanical influences on RoC?
softconsult
New
Ha! There is a Trackman less than 4 miles from my home.
Unfortunately, I need to be a member of the college golf team to use it!
Unfortunately, I need to be a member of the college golf team to use it!
S
SteveT
Guest
savydan ... has anybody properly defined "rate of closure" ...??? ... I don't think so....
The term "rate" suggests "time" and "closure" in the context of the downswing must mean the radial sweep of the clubhead face (or more precisely, the center of mass of the clubhead in relation to the longitudinal gravitational axis of the club) ...!
In the TT ShaftLab (that I like to refer to), they measured the position of the clubhead to the shaft for simplicity, and in part of the downswing the head "trails" the shaft so there is no closure.
So when does "closure" begin? I would say it begins when the rear arm elbow begins to unflex and thrust against the club handle. If your club is closing prior to that time, you are either coming over the top or somehow corkscrewing wildly ...!!!
Okay ... lets just say closure starts somewhere between shaft vertical and shaft horizontal in the downswing ... that is, your hands are calm for about 2/3rds of the downswing, leaving only the final 1/3 for closure action. Since your hands are now slowing down in accordance with kinetic chain sequencing, you should be able to apply some kind of conscious effort for FATS.
Unfortunately, the club is now freewheeling, so it's like trying to push a spinning bicycle spoke, so your window of opportunity to apply the force is extremely short ... in fact too short for the neuro-muscular activity to be controlled consciously by the brain..!!!
How fast is the axial rate of closure you ask??? Okay let's just assume that you only have about 1/10th of a second to apply and adjust for rate of closure. You must axially rotate the clubhead by 90º in that time.
90º in a tenth of a second is the same as ... 2.5 revs per second or 150 rpm ...
(Ain't science greeaat?!)
The term "rate" suggests "time" and "closure" in the context of the downswing must mean the radial sweep of the clubhead face (or more precisely, the center of mass of the clubhead in relation to the longitudinal gravitational axis of the club) ...!
In the TT ShaftLab (that I like to refer to), they measured the position of the clubhead to the shaft for simplicity, and in part of the downswing the head "trails" the shaft so there is no closure.
So when does "closure" begin? I would say it begins when the rear arm elbow begins to unflex and thrust against the club handle. If your club is closing prior to that time, you are either coming over the top or somehow corkscrewing wildly ...!!!
Okay ... lets just say closure starts somewhere between shaft vertical and shaft horizontal in the downswing ... that is, your hands are calm for about 2/3rds of the downswing, leaving only the final 1/3 for closure action. Since your hands are now slowing down in accordance with kinetic chain sequencing, you should be able to apply some kind of conscious effort for FATS.
Unfortunately, the club is now freewheeling, so it's like trying to push a spinning bicycle spoke, so your window of opportunity to apply the force is extremely short ... in fact too short for the neuro-muscular activity to be controlled consciously by the brain..!!!
How fast is the axial rate of closure you ask??? Okay let's just assume that you only have about 1/10th of a second to apply and adjust for rate of closure. You must axially rotate the clubhead by 90º in that time.
90º in a tenth of a second is the same as ... 2.5 revs per second or 150 rpm ...
(Ain't science greeaat?!)
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