Measuring Rate of Closure

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savydan

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It does seem like a hell of a lot of rotation, but that's really because the time is so short.

It does make you wonder if there is a big difference between the guys that appear to have a lot of closure and those who don't.

But, then again, a degree or two of face control separates the men from the boys.

We need to see at least a few real data points to get us in the ballpark of what kind of rpm we are talking about, where all this rotation occurs and, heck, make sure we have the right units.
 
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cwdlaw223

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SteveT said:
savydan ... has anybody properly defined "rate of closure" ...??? ... I don't think so....

The term "rate" suggests "time" and "closure" in the context of the downswing must mean the radial sweep of the clubhead face (or more precisely, the center of mass of the clubhead in relation to the longitudinal gravitational axis of the club) ...!

In the TT ShaftLab (that I like to refer to), they measured the position of the clubhead to the shaft for simplicity, and in part of the downswing the head "trails" the shaft so there is no closure.

So when does "closure" begin? I would say it begins when the rear arm elbow begins to unflex and thrust against the club handle. If your club is closing prior to that time, you are either coming over the top or somehow corkscrewing wildly ...!!!

Okay ... lets just say closure starts somewhere between shaft vertical and shaft horizontal in the downswing ... that is, your hands are calm for about 2/3rds of the downswing, leaving only the final 1/3 for closure action. Since your hands are now slowing down in accordance with kinetic chain sequencing, you should be able to apply some kind of conscious effort for FATS.

Unfortunately, the club is now freewheeling, so it's like trying to push a spinning bicycle spoke, so your window of opportunity to apply the force is extremely short ... in fact too short for the neuro-muscular activity to be controlled consciously by the brain..!!!

How fast is the axial rate of closure you ask??? Okay let's just assume that you only have about 1/10th of a second to apply and adjust for rate of closure. You must axially rotate the clubhead by 90º in that time.

90º in a tenth of a second is the same as ... 2.5 revs per second or 150 rpm ... :eek:

(Ain't science greeaat?!)
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So when someone tries to hit a cut shot you believe they aren't "consciously" controlling their rate of closure/clubface even though the person swining the club thinks/believes/attempts/tries to hold on and make sure the club face doesn't turnover?
 
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Kevin Shields

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If you close the shaft/LAFW/face from shallow to steep with good hand path and your hands reach the same spot you should able to control rate of closure.
 
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SteveT

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Kevin Shields said:
If you close the shaft/LAFW/face from shallow to steep with good hand path and your hands reach the same spot you should able to control rate of closure.
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Everybody has attempted to goose up their swing by vigorously rotating their hands prior to Impact to slap at the ball .... but that's a risky and unnecessary action because of the eccentricity of the various clubs.

It's harder to 'flip-closure' wedges because they are more upright and the clubhead eccentricity is greater than a driver and long clubs. Not only must you time the rate of closure for Impact, you must adjust for the different clubhead eccentricities.

How do you account for that additional kinetic factor?:confused:
 
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SteveT

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cwdlaw223 said:
So when someone tries to hit a cut shot you believe they aren't "consciously" controlling their rate of closure/clubface even though the person swining the club thinks/believes/attempts/tries to hold on and make sure the club face doesn't turnover?
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Good point ... but isn't a cut shot a "path" function, while rate of closure is an "axial" function?

Path is dependent on overall swing radius, while closure is only around the arm and club longitudinal axes.

Perhaps one can better control, consciously, semi-consciously or non-consciously, the larger body swing radius through Address alignment and swing 'feel' ... than controlling the rather high speed and short duration rate of closure of the clubhead/face.
 
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Todd Dugan

Todd Dugan

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The secret to clubface control is Clubhead Path control. You can bring the clubface in sqaure to the Target Line every time, but the ball only travels straight at the target when the the Path is 0* also. Pesonally, I've always found that when my path is on, the clubface behaves very nicely. But when the Path gets inside-out or outside-in of the intended path, there's just no way to consistently guess and compensate for what the adjusted clubface alignment at impact should be.
 
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SteveT

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Todd Dugan said:
The secret to clubface control is Clubhead Path control. ..... Personally, I've always found that when my path is on, the clubface behaves very nicely.
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Congratulation, you are a golfswing 'artist' now ... which is above and beyond a golfswing 'scientist'...:D
 
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GolfHappy

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My internet drives are longer than that! :)

I used to be a bit 'paralysis by analysis' with my own swing but now I can implement what I've learned more naturally and the game is a lot more fun again, so I guess I feel more like an artist who once did science! :)
 
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SteveT

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You can progress or regress in two paths .... from ignorant to stupid to hacker .... or from ignorant to science and then to Artist.

All Artists are exquisite 'scientists' in their field of accomplishment because they have developed a logical technique based on a 'science'.

Those who only want to have 'fun' are exploited by the club manufacturers and the 'fad' instructor-gurus ... just watch TGC commercials ... it's all there.
 
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wulsy

New
Hey StevieT and GolfHappy, why not post your swings on here so we can all have an opinion on who would win and how far your REAL drives go? ;)
 
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GolfHappy

New
wulsy said:
Hey StevieT and GolfHappy, why not post your swings on here so we can all have an opinion on who would win and how far your REAL drives go? ;)
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I've only got this old swing from 18 months ago... I'm the 3rd person.... and it went MILES! :)

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NRAcANROyg[/media]

First one is a 9h/capper :eek: Second is a 5 h/capper :eek:
 
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wulsy

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SteveT said:
You can progress or regress in two paths .... from ignorant to stupid to hacker .... or from ignorant to science and then to Artist.
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There are the blessed few who can miss out the science bit, but they are few and far between. John Daly is one for sure. For them rate of closure is of little interest. But even for guys like Tiger, science is important.

SteveT said:
All Artists are exquisite 'scientists' in their field of accomplishment because they have developed a logical technique based on a 'science'.
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I reckon this describes 95% of tour pros. Few have got there on natural ability alone. There are way too many pot holes on the way, and to get your a** out of these holes when you fall in you need scienctific fact. Just my opinion.
 
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SteveT

Guest
wulsy said:
Was that a hurricane downwind;) Only joking, doesn't look too bad!

OK, Steve your turn!
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LOL ... I don't play golf any more ... I just read golfswing books, analyze videos, and have become an internet golfswing expert ..:p:eek:;):D
 
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