More distance = less accuracy? any science

[sharkey35]

Conventional wisdom says there is a trade off between distance and accuracy, but is this really true? Most of the good players I have played with generally hit it long. Tour players are long and it sure helps them score better. Is there any science that shows a decrease in accuracy if you increase a golfer's swing speed?

There is a guy somewhat close to where I live that promotes speed training. His theory is that there is no decrease in accuracy, so you may as well learn to hit it fast and gain as much distance as you can. It's an intriguing thought. I'm devoted to the Manzella/Jacobs teaching, but was thinking to check this guy out for an hour or so - just to see if I can't get some more club head speed. Don't want to mess up what the Manz/Jacobs team has given me so far, tho.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Conventional wisdom says there is a trade off between distance and accuracy, but is this really true? Most of the good players I have played with generally hit it long. Tour players are long and it sure helps them score better. Is there any science that shows a decrease in accuracy if you increase a golfer's swing speed?

There is a guy somewhat close to where I live that promotes speed training. His theory is that there is no decrease in accuracy, so you may as well learn to hit it fast and gain as much distance as you can. It's an intriguing thought. I'm devoted to the Manzella/Jacobs teaching, but was thinking to check this guy out for an hour or so - just to see if I can't get some more club head speed. Don't want to mess up what the Manz/Jacobs team has given me so far, tho.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

95% od the things that would give you additional power, are damn good mechanics to use in any swing.

Also, the reason my home theater system has 100 watts x 5 channels, and an additional 1000 to my sub, is so it sounds great at normal levels.

 

[Olof Karlson]

You will hit it further sideways if you have the same path and clubface with more speed. Since it goes further it also goes further to the wrong direction. I think that's pretty logical.

However since most amateurs have pretty bad technique, if they change technique to hit it farther they will probably hit it straighter too (as BManz said). For that reason I have always thought that long and straight are strongly related to each other in the game of golf.

 

[Waynkie Doodle]

No doubt about it, learning to hit it further will benefit your swing and your game. Give the guy a try and then maybe post the kinda things he has you do to increase your club head speed. Maybe you can help us all out a little bit.

 

[AndyC]

If length off of the tee was a result of better ball striking wouldn't there be a bunch of long hitters at the top of the list in fairways hit in regulation?

 

[Olof Karlson]

Not at PGA tour level, everyone there has good technique. The long hitters just have more speed, not so much better technique. With the same level of technique speed equals more distance in the wrong direction.

For the average slicer improving technique will improve both length and accuracy though. The average golfer should be careful with just speeding up without making technique better.

 

[Richie3Jack]

I think it is a bit of a fallacy.

I think the reason why the PGA Tour players who hit it further are less accurate is often do the fairways bottle necking a bit as typical fairways do that. Plus you have added roll (you can hit a shot straight and fairly accurate and then it rolls thru the fairway into the rough) and wind.





3JACK

 

[AndyC]

I think it is a bit of a fallacy.

I think the reason why the PGA Tour players who hit it further are less accurate is often do the fairways bottle necking a bit as typical fairways do that. Plus you have added roll (you can hit a shot straight and fairly accurate and then it rolls thru the fairway into the rough) and wind.


3JACK

Surely then on par 3s where the longer hitters are using less club than a shorter hitter they would certainly hit the ball closer to the hole, no?

 

[billmckinneygolf]

Surely then on par 3s where the longer hitters are using less club than a shorter hitter they would certainly hit the ball closer to the hole, no?

This is a little like the NBA. There are some not so tall players, but they are TALL ENOUGH...the way the shorter hitters on the tour are LONG ENOUGH. Long hitters get to hit shorter clubs on all holes though.
For all practical purposes, learning to increase speed while maintaining/improving solid mechanics is a great idea.

 

[SteveT]

Yes, there is a trade-off between distance and accuracy, particularly for very high speed swingers like the LD competitors. They swing all-out and tend to lose the ball off the grid.

At very high speed, the errors are magnified because strange things happen to the body and golf club when pushed to the extreme. Recall how badly tour players can push the ball when they are hitting all-out.

As an equipment example, remember how badly stock graphite shafts performed many years ago when they were first introduced. Graphite shafts were inconsistent in their manufacture and their dynamic response was dubious. Remember when Tiger finally gave up his steel shafted driver and went with graphite in his Nike driver? Wotta mess!!!

As for "instant" speed training, I would caution you on such scams. Sure you can swing a weighted club or sling a chain about, but that won't make you any faster because the neuro-muscular system will not retain any suddenly imposed loading.

Clubhead speed only 'grows' slowly on you because your muscles and neural systems must evolve, and that takes a lot of time to happen. As you grow into a faster, more powerful golfswing, you adapt and retain your golfswing form. It takes months and years to raise your energy levels and have consistency. I remember when Leadbetter helped Faldo rebuild his golfswing .. and it took 2 years and then Faldo starting winning big. If it took him so long, how can hackers like you and me expect miraculous results.

Most rec'nal golfers are suckers for scams, and there are plenty of scam artists around to take their money ... and they even want to believe that their is power and accuracy built into their clubhead designs ... sorry ... no such thing. Hopeless indians with their fancy arrows ...!!!!

 

[sharkey35]

"Clubhead speed only 'grows' slowly on you because your muscles and neural systems must evolve, and that takes a lot of time to happen. As you grow into a faster, more powerful golfswing, you adapt and retain your golfswing form."

Does the science say this? BTW, he doesn't advertise any "instant" increases in speed. Selling point is learning how to swing fast, with drills etc to help you learn how. I'm a skeptic for almost all things, hence my original post. Not so worried about being suckered as wasting time on something that could hurt my game.

What would your advice be on "learning" more speed?

Tx.

 

[SteveT]

"Clubhead speed only 'grows' slowly on you because your muscles and neural systems must evolve, and that takes a lot of time to happen. As you grow into a faster, more powerful golfswing, you adapt and retain your golfswing form."

Does the science say this? BTW, he doesn't advertise any "instant" increases in speed. Selling point is learning how to swing fast, with drills etc to help you learn how. I'm a skeptic for almost all things, hence my original post. Not so worried about being suckered as wasting time on something that could hurt my game.

What would your advice be on "learning" more speed? .

I would recommend muscle toning and securing body joints through flexibility. Muscle toning can be done with simple weights no more than 30% of your max load capability, according to recent studies. Going above that is redundant. You can also tone your body with exercises that only involve body weight resistance.

Learning to swing 'fast' is only useful for the golfswing if you are using the same neuro-muscular system as you use for your regular golfswing. Training your muscles to swing a weighted club, uses different muscle and neural networks than you use for a regular golf club. What's the use of that .. that's an ignorant effort??!!!

To increase your clubhead speed you must generate more kinetic energy from your body that flows into your arms and then the club.

Kinetic energy = k • mass • velocity^2

To increase your clubhead velocity by say 10%, required an additional 21% increase of kinetic energy. That's why it's difficult to suddenly increase clubhead speed from say 100mph to 110mph ... you would have to generate an extra 21% energy. If you think swinging some gizmo will instantly give you 10mph more speed, you are being scammed. If you think you can suddenly swing consistently if you did find an additional 10mph, you're wrong!!

Steady daily practice over months and years will enable you to develop your maximum potential ... not some gizmo and 'drills' ... unless you are prepared to make a very long term commitment ... but then there is the danger that you may not be developing normal golf swing capabilities.

 

[Waynkie Doodle]

...you would have to generate an extra 21% energy. If you think swinging some gizmo will instantly give you 10mph more speed, you are being scammed. If you think you can suddenly swing consistently if you did find an additional 10mph, you're wrong!!...

Isn't it possible that if someone has improper sequencing or swing path issues that fixing these problems could find you an extra and consistent 10mph increase in club head speed? Perhaps you are holding back more than you should be and it just takes someone else to see that you've got that extra speed in there still, even without swinging out of your shoes. Of course if you assume someone is already making an 'optimized' swing then you are correct. There isn't much you can do to increase you club head speed over a short amount of time.

 

[SteveT]

Isn't it possible that if someone has improper sequencing or swing path issues that fixing these problems could find you an extra and consistent 10mph increase in club head speed? Perhaps you are holding back more than you should be and it just takes someone else to see that you've got that extra speed in there still, even without swinging out of your shoes. Of course if you assume someone is already making an 'optimized' swing then you are correct. There isn't much you can do to increase you club head speed over a short amount of time.

Absolutely correct and the operative words are "someone else", like a qualified instructor to find your swing faults and power leaks. The reality is that the rec golfer with a homemade swing will seek out gizmos and promises in a futile attempt to gain 'power' instantaneously ... and if that doesn't work, they just decide to buy a new set of weapons ... after all there must be power engineered into those massive driver heads ... and the colors too!!!

Most just continue to perfect their faults and then seek a magic solution and refusing to believe that a secret doesn't exist. I can show you how to execute a swing that is 10% faster, but it will destroy your usual golfswing and you won't be able to hit a ball squarely with all that extra power ... unless you continue to practice for months until something good happens.

When you make a swing change either consciously, or forcing a change through gizmos and drills ... you will get a lot worse before you get better ... and that's because you've messed up your normal neuro-muscular pathways and imposed new unfamiliar circuiting that you can't control or apply. That's what happens to tour pros when they overhaul their golfswing ... it happened to Faldo and Tiger too.

 

[Waynkie Doodle]

Makes sense to me, I like it.

 

[mdjosh]

Hello everybody,

I am a new member here and am really enjoying, and learning from everyones posts. This topic in particular caught my eye. With regards to the original question, yes increased distance can result in a loss of accuracy. This is due to the fact that any error in direction is magnified the further the ball travels. Take for example a 5 degree error in direction on a 100 yard shot. Assuming no sidespin, this ball will land approx 9 yards to the side of the target. At 200 yards the miss would be 18 yards, and at 300 yards the miss would be 27 yards. So the same error in aligment produces much bigger misses the longer you hit the ball.

As far as speed training, I am a big proponent that proper conditioning can result in worthwhile gains in club head speed. I completely agree that this training will not make up for deficeincies in technique, but speed training (or power training) can result in statistically significant club head speed increases. How much would be highly dependent on where your starting from though. A PGA tour pro, not much. An out of shape golfer would probably see a bigger increase.

 

[aaron_lohan]

I would recommend muscle toning and securing body joints through flexibility. Muscle toning can be done with simple weights no more than 30% of your max load capability, according to recent studies. Going above that is redundant. You can also tone your body with exercises that only involve body weight resistance.
.

Why tone the body and what do you mean by "tone the body"? Read the Russian sports research, loads of 45-70% of your 1 repetition maximum are the best for developing speed. Plyometric exercises are also effective but by their nature they are done without loads.

 

[Dariusz J.]

IMO, if the swing mechanics are properly set for gaining repeatability and consistency one can swing as hard as one wants and be accurate - the best example is post-secret Hogan. He would never ever have adviced to slow the swing down or similar BS.
OTOH, if one is pretty accurate while swinging, say, at 70% and very inaccurate with full poer it means that swing mechanics sucks.

Cheers

 

[Frans@France]

quality over quantity

Kinetic energy = k • mass • velocity^2

To increase your clubhead velocity by say 10%, required an additional 21% increase of kinetic energy. That's why it's difficult to suddenly increase clubhead speed from say 100mph to 110mph ... you would have to generate an extra 21% energy. If you think swinging some gizmo will instantly give you 10mph more speed, you are being scammed. If you think you can suddenly swing consistently if you did find an additional 10mph, you're wrong!!

But even more important is the quality of the sweetpot contact. If you would normally have a smashfactor of 1.4 with a swingspeed of 90 the ball will have a ballspeed of 126mph.

Learning to hit the sweetspot and therefor achiving a smashfactor of 1.49 will create a ball speed of 134 mph. And because it's the ballspeed to counts for distance those 8 mph with the SAME swingspeed will give you lots more distance.

If that golfer would then also learn to hit up with his driver, therefor having less spin, using a less lofted driver which increases the maximum smashfactor he would have gained more then trying to produce 21% more kinetic energy

 

[SteveT]

If that golfer would then also learn to hit up with his driver, therefor having less spin, using a less lofted driver which increases the maximum smashfactor he would have gained more then trying to produce 21% more kinetic energy

Do know of any data revealing how much the Smash Factor is affected with different Impacts and different driver head specs ... more than 21% ??!!!