Multiple D-Plane Topics

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It's pretty easy to debunk really.

All you have to do is take a club, close the face a bunch at address...and then swing exaggeratedly to the right. (maybe even toss in a full roll through the ball for good measure)

That ball ain't taking off anywhere near the path.

The clear seperation of path and clubface should make it more obvious.
 
BTW people I'm sure believe the ball starts at the path because like Jim says it "feels" like it does..............and then the method does for them what they want it to do.

(i.e. for the most part their ball does what they want it to)
 
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It's pretty easy to debunk really.

All you have to do is take a club, close the face a bunch at address...and then swing exaggeratedly to the right. (maybe even toss in a full roll through the ball for good measure)

That ball ain't taking off anywhere near the path.

The clear seperation of path and clubface should make it more obvious.

But your example isn't practical. Nicklaus was trying to hit 10 to 20 foot fades/draws(his example was aiming 10 feet right of the pin and trying to fade it back, at most 20 feet). So, it doesn't matter if the ball isn't taking off "exactly" along the path, it just needs to be approximate. And at the angles he was setting up trying to hit this degree of fade/draw would the difference between the D-plane and his "pop instruction" explanation be significant?
 
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i dunno if this is right, but i feel like..jack's method in reality is just a pull or push.

You aren't right. I'm all for a scientific explanation of golf, but at some point you have to look at results. Nicklaus didn't dominate golf by not being able to shape shots on demand.
 
But your example isn't practical. Nicklaus was trying to hit 10 to 20 foot fades/draws(his example was aiming 10 feet right of the pin and trying to fade it back, at most 20 feet). So, it doesn't matter if the ball isn't taking off "exactly" along the path, it just needs to be approximate. And at the angles he was setting up trying to hit this degree of fade/draw would the difference between the D-plane and his "pop instruction" explanation be significant?

True. But I wasn't trying to relate it to practical use.

I'm not surprised most people don't know how it really works BTW.

Like I said...most are just concerned about IF something works.

It's about time something as basic as this is set straight in the instruction world though, no?

People obviously have had the information for a good while now...

(or have had every oppourtunity to have the info.)
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
One thing I like about it is that it eliminates the idea that there is such a thing as a push draw or a pull fade. Every curved shot starts inside the path and the landing spot of the ball. It helps me to aim more than anything and to trust the face more than the path.

Just aim properly and get the face to start the ball where you want it, not the path. But working toward a somewhat neutral path will obviously help. Im currently working with a collegian who has tons of delay and a nice downward strike who will probably never truly swing left like we all think left is. HIS D-plane helps me help him to aim his fade enough left so he can adjust the face to point just a little right of his path. Before, he would think it was a big block fade and didnt think he "was allowed" to just aim more left!
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I think (know) that one of the most important skills of an accomplished ball striker is the ability to read ball flight and to make adjustments to the D Plane as required. In addition, understanding the relationship between clubface and swing path angles is paramount to developing shot shaping skills and/or developing the ability to hit the ball relatively “straight” or grooving a preferred shot shape (for players of all levels).

As a self-taught player, I read whatever I could get my hands on back in the mid-1970’s--Five Lessons, Golf My Way, etc. I’m not sure there was much more than that back in the day. Could have really used this Forum! I idolized Jack, but realized much later that a lot of the things he felt like he did in the swing were probably not exactly what he did. This is probably true for all great players who write instruction books/articles.

Early on, I thought Jack’s way of shaping shots was the simplest in theory (not necessarily the easiest in practice though). Anyway, I think it’s fairly common knowledge that he was using the “old” (incorrect) ball flight laws, and if he was really doing this the way he thought he was, it’s doubtful he would have had the record he did. So, how did this work/not work for him?

Recently, I read Clampett’s book. And, I’ll be darned that if in the section on Straight Plane Line, that he reveals a complete misconception of how the clubface and path work to make the ball do what it does. He too is convinced that path (alone) always determines the initial starting direction! Not comparing his record to Jack, but during the period in question he was probably the best amateur in the country. Personally, I think Clampett’s short game and putting from ten feet and in where what made him a world-class player, but his ball striking was still remarkable. (Especially in the first two rounds of the 1978 US Open). So, how did this work/not work for him?

The ball doesn’t lie.

As good as some of these guys are, maybe they would be better if their mis-conceptions were cleared up. Just throwing that out there. I still see alot of foul balls on TV.
 
True. But I wasn't trying to relate it to practical use.

Then whats the point really? Still no one has answered whether Nicklaus's method works with the d-plane or if they think he was deluding himself and won 18 majors by slapping it around and holing putts from everywhere.
 
My explanation of how the method where you aim clubface at target and aim yourself left or right to curve the ball, works because:

One would in reality learn to swing inside out relative to your stance for a draw and outside in for a fade. So in fact true path at separation is then further out or in than where body has been aimed at. That also moves face the same amount away from the target, so it's really pointing between true path and target.

Yes, I think this is one (very accurate) explanation. It's almost like you know your clubface is aimed too far right to play a fade, so you "help" the ball by swinging more outside than your alignment dictates and as a result change where the clubface is pointing at separation.

Nicklaus felt like his lower body action was different when he was playing right-to-left vs. left-to-right. This could contribute to being a little over plane/path for the fade and a bit under plane/path for a draw, thus contributing to this line of thinking ("helping" the shot work despite incorrect setup alignment positions).
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
This is why the D-plane concept helps more with alignment than anything. It will help you swing neutral and not so much left or right.
 
Then whats the point really? Still no one has answered whether Nicklaus's method works with the d-plane or if they think he was deluding himself and won 18 majors by slapping it around and holing putts from everywhere.

All I am talking about is how easy it is to prove to someone (whoever) how it really works.

Good for Jack if what he did worked for him.

I am results-oriented.

But the bottom line is I don't see how it could benefit you to stick with inaccurate information if you knew better.

You do but probably are trying to push buttons.
 
I can attest to the fact that the Nicklaus method works very well. After a bit of practice you get to know exactly how much to close or open the face and where to aim your swing. Been doing it for over 5 years and never heard of a D-plane until a couple of years ago.
 
All I am talking about is how easy it is to prove to someone (whoever) how it really works.

Good for Jack if what he did worked for him.

I am results-oriented.

But the bottom line is I don't see how it could benefit you to stick with inaccurate information if you knew better.

You do but probably are trying to push buttons.

No, I am trying to figure out how a player actually practically uses the d-plane concept. While the Nicklaus method may not be 100% accurate in its theory, it is very practically useful.
 
I of course am not Jack Nicklaus or of his caliber...

;)

But all I really worry about is how to alter my swing to hit certain shots. Knowing a bit about ball flight laws (real ones) makes that easier. And easier to diagnose misses.

As for what JN and others do.........I of course would not disagree that it has already been and could for sure be made to work well. My guess is they too figured out what motion to make to hit what kind of shot. (I could be wrong) Then tried to explain how it worked. At this point I personally couldn't tell you how they came up with what they did.

Dunno.

Though I don't see how you couldn't do at least as well even simply knowing that starting direction is very near to where the face points and curve is determined by the true path.

(and how much it deviates from face angle)
 
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I can attest to the fact that the Nicklaus method works very well. After a bit of practice you get to know exactly how much to close or open the face and where to aim your swing. Been doing it for over 5 years and never heard of a D-plane until a couple of years ago.

You don't have to know the science to hit shots.

The ball just knows what the clubhead is doing.

Thus there's nothing wrong with pre-setting the angle of your clubface to move the ball around if it works for you. Worked OK for Jack.

The ball still doesn't start at the path though.....even if thinking that it does produces results for you in spite of being incorrect.
 
You don't have to know the science to hit shots.

The ball just knows what the clubhead is doing.

Thus there's nothing wrong with pre-setting the angle of your clubface to move the ball around if it works for you. Worked OK for Jack.

The ball still doesn't start at the path though.....even if thinking that it does produces results for you in spite of being incorrect.

Agreed, the ball definitely does not start in the direction of the club path.
 
Ok, so in layman's terms.

If I want to hit a fade, I close the face some, so ball initially starts left and swing more left of target..

Is that correct?
 
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