Multiple D-Plane Topics

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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
This is what people need to understand....

It's all about face relationship to the path that it's on...this is very simplied but should make some lightbulbs go off:

a 5* inside/out path with a 3* open face would produce a draw because the face is 2* CLOSED TO THE PATH IT TRAVELED ON.

Opposite for a fade; remember it isn't just about closed/open, it's closed/open in relationship to the path the club was traveling on. The complicated part is that shaft lean makes the path more in/out than with less shaft lean so you have to know that to make the ball do what u want.
 

Ryan Smither

Super Moderator
Let me add to the confusion...

And don't forget that most of this d-plane talk assumes good contact...toe shots produce draw spin and heel shots cut spin...low on the face more spin and high on the face less spin...

So my old assumption that all straight shots (pulls & pushes) were matching face and path was pure 'idiocracy'.
 

ggsjpc

New
I've had that book for many years and I have a few questions for real world applications just for my own desire. The difficult part of explaining this to people is that there are many assumptions that must be made. Not that they're not factual, but they must be discussed. The assumption that I see the most from the posts I have read is that the ball is hit before low point on the plane. While this may be true for any good iron shot, it is not necessarily true for shots hit off a tee. In fact, as I'm sure most of you would agree, carry distance on a drive is maximized by an upward hit. This is obviously after low point and no longer an inside out true path and encourages shots that go left. While this information is useful, without extremely powerful technology like a trackman to tell a person what their attack angle was on any given shot, it is hard to make an accurate assesment of the true d-plane for the shot. (I'm assuming of course that none of us can tell if a player had a 2 degree upward attack angle vs. a 0 degree attack angle just by watching with the naked eye. Maybe we can see big differences but not small ones). Without knowing the exact attack angle, we are guessing on the true orientation of the face relative to the true path. So my first question is, without exact data or the skills to produce exactly the same attack angle for each of our shots aren't we all just fudging the numbers a little bit? Yes, everything I see has lots of validity and is great information but how useful is it to the majority of golfers?

My next question deals with the shaft lean topic. This is something I haven't cleared in my mind yet. Can someone tell me why it is safe to assume that more forward lean in the shaft automatically means more in to out true path? From my above thought, it seems appropriate that with a driver there is some shaft lean on a drive with an upward attack angle and that isn't in to out. Secondly, isn't is possible to maintain some amount of shaft lean into the finish that would alter its actual low point? Thirdly, can't a person completely change the low point of the swing by other means(such as improper weight shift) to again alter the low point. (clearly, this last one wouldn't be recommended but does happen).

As with most things in golf, it comes down to plane and face angle. For the writer looking for clarity. To understand the d-plane you need to be comfortable with the shape of a circle at an angle. Anytime you hit a ball before the low point, relative to the ball, the club head is moving in to out because of what a circle looks like at an angle and anytime you hit a ball after low point, relative to the ball, the clubhead is moving out to in. in other words, if you take a dish and hold it to an angle to the counter, relative to the part of the dish touching the counter the "backswing" side of that dish is above and inside of the part touching the counter. For upward hits, the "followthrough" side of the dish is above and inside also so the club head is constantly moving down and out to low point than its moving up and in after low point. so if the ball is hit before low point, the club is always moving down from in to out, relative to the ball, and if it's hit after low point the clubhead head is moving up from out to in, relative to the ball. The key here is relative to the ball, NOT THE TARGET. After that, it's face orientation relative to the true path of the clubhead. The key is forgetting what has been told for so long that path determines initial start and face determines curve. While that makes sense its not accurate. clubface orientation relative to the true path determines both starting direction and curve.

From my understanding, the graph that is shown can be explained this way. the line at the bottom is the tangent to true path when ball comes off the face and the rising line is the club face orientation(normal to the face blah blah blah) when the ball comes off the face. if the two lines are on each other you have a striaght shot in the direction tangent to true path after seperation. if the angled line is right of (or open for right handers) the bottom line you have a ball start right and curve more right. Opposite for left but I think you get the message.

If you're still confused cut out at right triangle(triangle with one angle at 90 degress) from a piece of paper. place it on the table with the hypotenuse(sp? or long side) angled off the table. the piece of the triangle on the table is the tangent to the true path line and the hypotenuse is the club face orientation. Standing it straight up will show you the 3-dimensional look of a d-plane straight shot. looking at it from straight on the hypotenuse(in other words the skinny part width of the paper). After that start move it around to see how it changes. pick an imaginary target, rotate the triangle so it doesn't point at the target and tilt the triangle so it's not on top of it self. Hopefully that helps. of course, different clubs will have different amounts of rise in that hypotenuse angle based on their loft and so on...

If i'm wrong with any part of my description, please help me and let me know about the question s i have.
 
Kudos to Birdie

First off, great posts birdie Man! You are capturing the essence of what I’m asking about in this thread. You get it!

Second, I only used the term “D Plane” in my initial post because I just assumed folks on this forum understood what that meant in terms of clubface and path explaining ball flight. It was not my intention to debate the relative merits of the D Plane. I should have just talked clubface and path angles, sorry. Call it whatever you want, but true ball flight laws make the ball do what it does--for everybody--including Jack.

My initial question was how/why was he able to get the correct impact dynamics when he was trying to do something else. In another thread Brian called it “fudging.” How have he and others done this? Why is Clampett explaining it basically the same way, more than thirty years after “Golf My Way” was written?

Thirdly, yes, the angles do matter and so does the initial direction of the golf ball, especially if you are looking for the type of precision that Jack had. You are trying to curve the ball toward your target--not away from it. If the clubface is pointing at the target at separation, it will not curve toward it--it will start about at it and curve away from it. (Obviously, a dead straight shot is an exception.) Jack tried to start the ball on one side of the target and move the ball toward it. Therefore, getting the start-line correct on a twenty-foot fade meant he was twenty feet left (if ball went straight), ball in the hole (curved twenty feet as intended), or twenty feet on the right side of the target (the ball curved forty feet left–to-right).
 

ggsjpc

New
the one thing i didn't add to my triangle cut out would be to draw an arc on the paper on either side of the hypotenuse to represent the ball curve. The true d-plane is a curved event when they dont match up so you can estimated a curve about an inch tall from corner of paper to the other(table corner of hypotenuse to elevated corner of hypotenuse) on both sides of paper to represent draw and fade. Obviously, this is a very rough estimation but it may help to see the curve on the paper.
 
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This is what people need to understand....

It's all about face relationship to the path that it's on...this is very simplied but should make some lightbulbs go off:

a 5* inside/out path with a 3* open face would produce a draw because the face is 2* CLOSED TO THE PATH IT TRAVELED ON.

Opposite for a fade; remember it isn't just about closed/open, it's closed/open in relationship to the path the club was traveling on. The complicated part is that shaft lean makes the path more in/out than with less shaft lean so you have to know that to make the ball do what u want.

so if i set up to a shot, open my face a little, and swing inside out, im going to produce a draw? not a push out into right feild?
Im asking purely to try and figure this out in terms I am going to understand.

also, closed club head, and out to in path will create what?
 
so if i set up to a shot, open my face a little, and swing inside out, im going to produce a draw? not a push out into right feild?

As long as the true path is going more outward than the face is pointed...

Im asking purely to try and figure this out in terms I am going to understand.

also, closed club head, and out to in path will create what?

If they are both aligned to the left, a pull. If the true path is more to the left (in) than the face is, it will be a "pull-fade". If the true path is less left than the face, it will be a pull draw.

...that's my understanding...
 
How about a NEW D-Plane topic !!!!!

Having read "The Physics of Golf" and the study in "Golf and Science IV", a general understanding of the D-plane can be established. What I am interested in are the calculations of the ball velocity vector compared to the clubface normal vector.

I have read that with zero downward strike, a driver swung at 45 m/s will be launched at 80 percent of the clubface normal. A 6iron, also at a zero downward strike launches at 60 percent of the clubface normal.

What I am unsure of is:
1. Under the same conditions, what percentage of the clubface norm. would a 9 iron or wedge launch at?
2. How does downward strike change the ball velocity vector on the D-Plane?

Any help is appreciated.
 
so if i set up to a shot, open my face a little, and swing inside out, im going to produce a draw? not a push out into right feild?
Im asking purely to try and figure this out in terms I am going to understand.

also, closed club head, and out to in path will create what?

If the face points left of path then,draw/hook, if face points right of path the fade/slice.

A dead straight shot anywhere means path and face are pointing in the same direction.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Answers...and then....more Answers.

I have read that with zero downward strike, a driver swung at 45 m/s will be launched at 80 percent of the clubface normal. A 6iron, also at a zero downward strike launches at 60 percent of the clubface normal.

My research tells me the spread is not that much.

Mike Finney and Jon Hardesty did a lot of TrackMan data research a few months back, and I'll ask them what they found.

I am spending a whole day on TrackMan and 3D tomorrow and I will report back.

1. Under the same conditions, what percentage of the clubface norm. would a 9 iron or wedge launch at?
2. How does downward strike change the ball velocity vector on the D-Plane?

I will have REAL WORLD answers off of TrackMan by tomorrow night.
 
Golf and Science 4

Thanks for sharing the information. The numbers I posted were from the Golf and Science study 4th edition. I unfortunately can't remember the page numbers of the study (around page 500).

Your real world numbers from TrackMan will be a great help, thanks again.
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
so if i set up to a shot, open my face a little, and swing inside out, im going to produce a draw? not a push out into right feild?
Im asking purely to try and figure this out in terms I am going to understand.

Yes; as long as the path was more in/out than the face open to it. So as an example; you setup with a 3* open face and swing 5* in/out you'd have a little draw. If you swung 3* in/out with the same face you'd hit a push and if you swung 1* inside/out you'd hit a small push that would fade.

also, closed club head, and out to in path will create what?

Again it would depend on how closed it was in relationship to the path. Use my example above to start to gain an understanding.
 
Remember, when someone says "3* open face", you have to know if it's "open" to the target line or the path of the club.

I think it's safe to say that the convention is currently respective to the target line rather than the path if it's not specifically stated.
 
Remember, when someone says "3* open face", you have to know if it's "open" to the target line or the path of the club...


When Brian reports his trackman data, this is something that he's going to have to be clear on, otherwise somebody is going to be really confused :)
 
So as an example; you setup with a 3* open face and swing 5* in/out you'd have a little draw.

In this example, the curvature of the ball flight in nature is the same as the "old" ball flight laws, but the actual flight is more accurately defined. To be more specific , you'd have a little draw that would start ~3.4 degrees right of your target, and draw inwards. As opposed to the "old" ball flight laws that stated your ball would start 5 degrees right of target, and draw to end up 3 degrees right of target.
 
The point is...

Then whats the point really? Still no one has answered whether Nicklaus's method works with the d-plane or if they think he was deluding himself and won 18 majors by slapping it around and holing putts from everywhere.

...that the "Nicklaus" method worked. Any doubters? The whole point of this thread though, is that his method was not was he thought it was. Don't get hung up on the D Plane. Prove to yourself that the ball starts in the direction of the clubface, not the path. Then ask yourself, how did He do it?
 
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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
In this example, the curvature of the ball flight in nature is the same as the "old" ball flight laws, but the actual flight is more accurately defined. To be more specific , you'd have a little draw that would start ~3.4 degrees right of your target, and draw inwards. As opposed to the "old" ball flight laws that stated your ball would start 5 degrees right of target, and draw to end up 3 degrees right of target.

I don't understand what you are referring too; i mentioned nothing about where the ball would start or how much it would curve and you cannot accurately define that either because you don't know what the attack angle was or what club i was used (even though this is a hypothetical example).

All i am trying to do is help people understand that ballflight is dependant on both face and path and one of the biggest misconceptions is the face relationship to the path it traveled on. In my example all i'm saying is that it will draw.
 
I don't understand what you are referring too; i mentioned nothing about where the ball would start or how much it would curve and you cannot accurately define that either because you don't know what the attack angle was or what club i was used (even though this is a hypothetical example).

All i am trying to do is help people understand that ballflight is dependant on both face and path and one of the biggest misconceptions is the face relationship to the path it traveled on. In my example all i'm saying is that it will draw.

But if he is trying to understand the difference between the new information and the old information, curvature alone is not always the difference. So, if he (or anyone new to the information) had read the example, they might not see the difference at all; both the "old" laws and "new" laws would have the ball drawing... I was just trying to expand your example to show where(abouts) the ball will start and draw to, since that is the main difference.
 
...that the "Nicklaus" method worked. Any doubters? The whole point of this thread though, is that his method was not was he thought it was. Don't get hung up on the D Plane. Prove to yourself that the ball starts in the direction of the clubface, not the path. Then ask yourself, how did He do it?


what kind of success/failure have the teachers on this board had with this way of shaping shots? what percentage of good players does it work for?
 
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