My impression of S&T

[davidy48]

In practice though....

My first post ever on this board, and it has nothing to do with TGM....

I've been reading a number of threads and blogs about S+T since it first came to prominence. What I notice is that the people attacking it haven't actually tried it, the people defending generally have !

I fall into the later category, having tried it ON THE COURSE yesterday and today after a few balls on the range. I have a history of experimentation having tried ( among others ) Moe Norman, Mindy Blake and most recently Mike Austin ( the most successful so far ). I'm a 9 handicapper with a decent sporting background but a dodgy back.

Yesterday in competition I got round in 76, no long putts or fluky chipins, just the best ballstriking I have experienced in 30 years. Better ball contact, more spin on the irons, a very straight penetrating ballflight and a few yards extra distance. No problems with driver or fairway woods.

Today played mixed foursomes and the same experience, including a nice 5 iron draw and a perfect 3 wood fade off a soaking fairway so wet there was nowhere dry to take a drop !

So guys, my conclusion is this swing works and you'd be better employed trying to find out why rather than theorising about why not !

I hasten to add I have absolutely no connection with anyone of any consequence...

 

[mtwie]

48, you need to send that to all pga tour players and fast!

 

[tongzilla]

S&T could work if...

S&T as illustrated by Golf Digest might work if:

• 
  You're not actually doing the S&T pattern, just feeling like you are.

• You're currently swinging completely opposite to the S&T pattern, therefore by attempting the S&T pattern, your swing becomes more orthodox.

 

[JamesBurg]

I guess we don't even know what S&T is. We have been told, in this thread, that Plummer and Bennett allowed an incorrect article to be printed.

What does that say about them, and about Golf Digest?

 

[kshoren05]

Just want everyone to know that I attempted the blasphemous stack and tilt today...I hung left and shot 65 at Los Verdes GC (par 71). Anyhow, it didn't seem to hurt me. I hit the ball well, hard, and straight...with my swing centers ahead of the ball(OK, I didn't video it). But I must say, hanging left has helped me.

 

[Brian Manzella]

If it work for you....

I am all for doing whatever works.

But just remember, WHY anything works....

Because the PATH of the clubhead, the clubface ALIGNMENT at impact, and the shaft LEAN, fit the shot you attempted to hit.

As I have said before, I spent two weeks hitting 1000's of balls working on that type of pattern. It has its good points and bad, but is hardly ideal.

If it works for you, go right ahead, keep shooting your 65's, your 76's with no long putts or fluky chipins, or hitting beautiful high compressed iron shots of a quality you have not seen before.

It is because you made the CLUB work better, which is how I teach.

All I am saying is,

I can get ANY OF YOU to do WHATEVER IT IS YOU DID WITH THE CLUB without stacking or (reverse)tilting.

And, I belive that is better.

Now lets give someone else who doesn't need it, free advertising.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Leo!

S&T as illustrated by Golf Digest might work if:

• 
  You're not actually doing the S&T pattern, just feeling like you are.

• You're currently swinging completely opposite to the S&T pattern, therefore by attempting the S&T pattern, your swing becomes more orthodox.

You get smarter everyday...I never gave up on you, and now you make me proud!

 

[Brian Manzella]

Sorry folks...

This forum is used all the time for things other than what it was intended.

I edited some posts becuase they added nothing to the thread.

My last two posts should be consider as "the final word" on the topic, unless someone wants me to clarify them, or challenge them.

 

[birdie_man]

My first post ever on this board, and it has nothing to do with TGM....

I've been reading a number of threads and blogs about S+T since it first came to prominence. What I notice is that the people attacking it haven't actually tried it, the people defending generally have !

I fall into the later category, having tried it ON THE COURSE yesterday and today after a few balls on the range. I have a history of experimentation having tried ( among others ) Moe Norman, Mindy Blake and most recently Mike Austin ( the most successful so far ). I'm a 9 handicapper with a decent sporting background but a dodgy back.

Yesterday in competition I got round in 76, no long putts or fluky chipins, just the best ballstriking I have experienced in 30 years. Better ball contact, more spin on the irons, a very straight penetrating ballflight and a few yards extra distance. No problems with driver or fairway woods.

Today played mixed foursomes and the same experience, including a nice 5 iron draw and a perfect 3 wood fade off a soaking fairway so wet there was nowhere dry to take a drop !

So guys, my conclusion is this swing works and you'd be better employed trying to find out why rather than theorising about why not !

I hasten to add I have absolutely no connection with anyone of any consequence...

Well good man.

But.....does it look like a massive reverse pivot like in the article?

(i.e. antidote vs. cure)

 

[birdie_man]

I guess we don't even know what S&T is. We have been told, in this thread, that Plummer and Bennett allowed an incorrect article to be printed.

What does that say about them, and about Golf Digest?

That is a bit of a dilema eh.........

At the least it says a lot about GD.

 

[Spike]

Luckily we've got guys like Nat and others here to set the record straight. GD has too much power and influence over the perception of the golf swing and loneliness of learning it.

We are the lucky ones!

 

[JeffM]

New insights into the S&T swing methodology.

I have recently seen a number of golfers using the S&T swing method with great success. I have also tried the S&T method and it definitely works. When I originally analysed the S&T method, based on the June 2007 GD article, I was under the impression that Bennett/Plummer recommended that the spine be tilted to the LEFT during the backswing and downswing, and I thought that they only wanted the spine to become tilted to the right after impact. My original impression was wrong. I now understand their swing methodology better, and my greatest insight came from seeing a swing video of Mike McNary, taken from the back - see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Jm71JpO01U

I have created a series of capture images from that swing video, and it is available at http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/MW.jpg

Image 1 - Mike adopts the standard address position, with his spine tilted slightly to the right. The red dots are the swing centers - upper swing center midway between the shoulders, and lower swing center midway between the hips.

Image 2 - Mike then shuffles about in his address position, and places more weight on the left leg, and this causes his spine to be less tilted to the right. The upper swing center is nearly stacked vertically over the lower swing center, and both swing centers are ahead of the ball.

Image 3 - End-backswing position. Note that Mike pivots over a nearly straight right leg which is angled more towards the target, which causes the right buttocks to move back and to the left. This causes the lumbar spine to be reoriented to the right. However, Mike doesn't allow his upper thoracic spine to also become tilted to the right (as occurs in the traditional swing). He keeps the upper spine nearly vertical. One can also sense that his entire pelvis has moved slightly over to the left and that Mike has a significant amount of weight on the left leg. Note that both swing centers are ahead of the ball. Note that I have placed a red line alongside his left outer hip at the end-backswing position.

Image 4 - Start of the downswing. You can see that Mike is putting more weight on the left leg (like "squashing a soda can under his left foot") and that the hips don't have to slide too far to the left because he is already weighted over the left leg. Note that he still has a slightly rightwards tilted spine. Note that both swing centers are ahead of the ball.

Image 5 - Mid-downswing. Note that the spine is very slightly tilted to the right, and that both swing centers are ahead of the ball. Note that the hips are now square and the right hip is no longer higher than the left hip.

Image 6 - Late downswing, nearing-impact. Note that the spine is very slightly tilted to the right, and that both swing centers are ahead of the ball. He is now starting to pivot around to the left over a straightening left leg.

Image 7 - Early followthrough. Note that the spine is very slightly tilted to the right. Note that his head hasn't moved during the downswing - and that it is ahead of the ball position throughout the downswing.

This series of images demonstrates that the spine is never tilted to the left during the S&T swing, and that there is NO reverse pivoting in the S&T swing.

These images also demonstrate how the swing centers are ahead of the ball during the entire swing, and are definitely ahead of the ball at impact.

Interestingly, I cannot see any ABRUPT lifting of the left hip at impact/early followthrough and I therefore cannot identify an over-aggressive "hip springing-up" phenomenon that may lead to chronic back problems.

Jeff.

 

[Cope]

Stack and Tilt

Jeffman,

Interesting analysis. I tried it, and I like it. But.... That's Mike Mcnary --not Mike Weir--who is left-handed. Mike makes a nice sound doesn't he.