Negative-tumble 101

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GeoffDickson

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There are three concepts I am struggling to understand and connect:

1. Negative-tumble
2. Steep downswing
3. A more shallow angle of attack

Is this a good definition of anti-tumble: A post transition phenomenon characterized by the shaft becoming more horizontal.

Is the following statement logical: A golfer with no anti-tumble will likely have a steep downswing and a higher than optimal angle of attack numbers.

Is a steep downswing the same as having a high AoA?

What is the best ‘move’ to create anti-tumble? Is it a conscious move or just the result of something? Perhaps just a soft/slow/smooth transition? Swingthought: Leave the hands at the top for as long as possible?
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
GeoffDickson said:
There are three concepts I am struggling to understand and connect:

1. Anti-tumble
2. Steep downswing
3. A more shallow angle of attack

Is this a good definition of anti-tumble: A post transition phenomenon characterized by the shaft becoming more horizontal.

Is the following statement logical: A golfer with no anti-tumble will likely have a steep downswing and a higher than optimal angle of attack numbers.

Is a steep downswing the same as having a high AoA?

What is the best ‘move’ to create anti-tumble? Is it a conscious move or just the result of something? Perhaps just a soft/slow/smooth transition? Swingthought: Leave the hands at the top for as long as possible?
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A golfer without negative beta (tumble), will likely have a steepish looking downswing but may likely hump a goat and shallow out impact. The two are very different.

A steep downswing can mean a lot of things. High AoA and steep IMPACT mean the same, though.

For some, it can be a result or subconscious move, bu for others, "laying the shaft down", has to be trained. For one, I wouldn't do it by tilting the spine or raising the left shoulder. Unless you want to lose a decade of your potential, cough, cough.......

I try to "curl" the right hand and arm under as my weight falls left with no tilt of the body. Some may feel some away from the ball rotation of the left arm.
 
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spktho

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Kevin Shields said:
For some, it can be a result or subconscious move, bu for others, "laying the shaft down", has to be trained. For one, I wouldn't do it by tilting the spine or raising the left shoulder. Unless you want to lose a decade of your potential, cough, cough.......

I try to "curl" the right hand and arm under as my weight falls left with no tilt of the body. Some may feel some away from the ball rotation of the left arm.
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Now you tell us :) I have only lost a couple years, though. Not too bad.

On the "curl" of the right hand and arm, is that like the move of getting the right elbow in front of the right hip with the wrist bending back more?
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
It doesn't have to be in front of the right hip but that description works. I can't get mine in front of the hip nor would I want it there....too much pitch too late.
 
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hrely

New
FWIW, i find the soft draw backswing very helpful in setting up the negative tumble. On good days it feels like after a smooth transition I can then immediately begin the gamma tumble.
 
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Lindsey Newman

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Kevin Shields said:
It doesn't have to be in front of the right hip but that description works. I can't get mine in front of the hip nor would I want it there....too much pitch too late.
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I agree. Attempting to drive the right elbow in front of the right hip promotes a dragged, backed up shaft which will tend to open the face. It also tends to walk the hand path out to the right for right handers. All recipes for skank cake.
 
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gumper

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Kevin,

Two questions:

1. Would "Keep the (back of the ) left hand on top of the right hand" produce the same move as "curling the right hand and arm under?"

2. Is there a drawback to "automating" this move in the backswing so that it doesn't have to be done later in the swing?

Thanks.

gumper
 
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DCgolf

New
Lindsey Newman said:
I agree. Attempting to drive the right elbow in front of the right hip promotes a dragged, backed up shaft which will tend to open the face. It also tends to walk the hand path out to the right for right handers. All recipes for skank cake.
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Its what a lot of steep across the liners do, push the hands way out to try to lay it back down, then with the hands that far out they have to stand it up anyway to keep it off the hosel!! its why i still love watching new players; just seeing the methods they employ to try to piece it together. They swing, miss, swing chunk, and then out of nowhere they put the club on the back of the ball, and voila-they are a golfer. I think that feedback is so powerful when the ball goes in the air, they try to repeat it no matter how contorted it may have been. great game...
 
KGlennCole

KGlennCole

New
Kevin,

A simple question 'cuz I'm confused about this thread. Negative-tumble is bad. You want/need tumble. Correct?
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
KGlennCole said:
Kevin,

A simple question 'cuz I'm confused about this thread. Negative-tumble is bad. You want/need tumble. Correct?
Click to expand...

You need to have negative tumble (shaft lay down) before you have positive tumble. It's like the ball resting in the back of your fingers before you release it in a throw.
 
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DCgolf

New
What about top position? Sergio seems in perfect negative tumble position with his right forearm as vertical as it is, no?
 
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spktho

New
gumper said:
1. Would "Keep the (back of the ) left hand on top of the right hand" produce the same move as "curling the right hand and arm under?"

2. Is there a drawback to "automating" this move in the backswing so that it doesn't have to be done later in the swing?

Thanks.

gumper
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Sorry not Kevin, but I'm sure when he sees this he will comment.

For me:

1. that is a good feel. I have also liked the feel of the clubhead falling to the ground behind me while the hands go down.

2. I think it would be ideal if you can make it part of the end of the backswing, but it also needs to be done in the transition and during the early downswing.

I think a good gauge if you are negative then positive tumbling is the feel of the clubhead going around the sternum as opposed to around the neck. Hope that makes sense.
 
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DCgolf

New
It has to be the most common flaw in golf. I'd be willing to bet that for every player who lays it down in transition, 50 are starting down too steep. And when you have someone do it for the first time they look at you like you're mad. Might be the most counterintuitive move in the swing...
 
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Lifter

New
DCgolf said:
It has to be the most common flaw in golf. I'd be willing to bet that for every player who lays it down in transition, 50 are starting down too steep. And when you have someone do it for the first time they look at you like you're mad. Might be the most counterintuitive move in the swing...
Click to expand...

Seems to me that this is a case where video could be tremendously useful........
 
lia41985

lia41985

New member
Too steep doesn't mean "outside-in" hand path, however. Keep that in mind. Dariusz is on board with that. Me too. I think most people would be. That's pretty counterintuitive than what's presented by all the inside out mantra of the mainstream. Over the top from the inside. Jacobs talked about that kinda when describing Locke's swing, didn't he? Forgive me. I remember that for some reason...
 
lia41985

lia41985

New member
Teaching the golfer to roll his arms is tremendously beneficial in teaching the side-on component of the game to the player while allowing for an outside-in hand path that preserves the intuitive appeal of the game itself. Negative tumble/laying it off/trail arm supination along with lead arm pronation, etc. It all goes together. And the way the arm "sits" back (or not) out of the shoulder joints is another area of concern. That's why I think it can be beneficial for a lot of players to learn to do this almost from the start of learning how to play. Trust me, with pitch shots, this is a must for learning how to use bounce. You just won't feel like you're tumbling at a all during the transition and downswing and simply feel like you're just dragging the hosel sharply left like you'd be "can opening" (made up verb) your ankles off.

Speaking of which...has anyone just tries have the golfer stand open with the ball pretty far forward in his stance, and even a 3 or 6 iron looks open like you'd be improvising a pseudo-sandshot, teach him to swing his arms up while rotating them and turning however which way and shifting whichever which way he needs to to feel like he's moving athletically without falling...and then teach him to tumble from the get go, allowing him to swing a little outside in but making sure the wrist uncock DOWN?!

He can slide a little bit and even stick the club in the ground a little. That's the feeling, at least. It's a rotary throw with the amount of down/out/forward/back right where you need it for what you're trying to do. Let me know what happens when you do. It'll be of interest, I hope.

The well struck long iron and the well struck sand shot from the short side of the green are nearly opposite in technical execution, and yet, being aware of that continuum and thnn coming to terms with the fact that the putting stroke and all other shots through the bag are all different but all still in the same vain...that can be a break through for folks playing the game. It's a huge break through with learning how to enjoy hitting every single club and gaining joy in terms of working the ball and trying different shots. The golf club is a tool after all. Think of it as the artist's bristle.

Low point and thus, impact, are infinitely more complex than we are told. Bedeviled we are by it. The surprising difference between setup and contact and the resulting impact/shot speak volumes for that "experiment".

Would you play against this guy with your own cash?
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/O-xy4toK_bo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
Shittttt...
 
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