Never Slice Again - Twist Away

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tongzilla

tongzilla

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quote:Originally posted by brianman

One the first point Leo, you are right AND wrong.

The clubface should NEVER be closed at the top...I said more closed....;)

One the grip thought....Absolutely most players grip it "non-matching."

I just think SLICERS and HACKERS improve faster SOMETIMES with a matching grip.
Click to expand...

Yes it is more closed. You said:
quote:Originally posted by brianman


Hooks REQUIRE closed faces....
Click to expand...
;)

Regarding matching grip, I don't know if I'm being pedantic or we've just got different ideas, but it's never exactly matching! It's always more closed relative to the clubface. For evidence, just look at the photo of Brian himself in 'PIC 6' in his Never Slice Again Article (http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=222)
As you can see, the leading edge (not top edge) is slightly more closed relative to his flat left wrist.

I've also discovered the following, which I'm sure Brian knows about already!
Open the fingers of your left hand and have it vertical (so not rotated or turned) relative to the clubface and not gripping the club.
Your flat left wrist should be exactly parallel to the leading edge of the clubface. That's what I call a 'matching left wrist'.
Now maintaining this exact condition, curl your fingers around the grip (which is placed slightly under the heel pad as per usual).
Your left wrist is now slightly turned!
In other words, the clubface is more closed relative to your left wrist.
The more you grip it under the heelpad (more Accumulator #3), the more closed the clubface will be relative to your left wrist.

So if you wanted to really have your left wrist parallel to the clubface, then your need to start off with your left wrist rolled (i.e. very weak), so when you actually put your fingers around the club, it will be vertical and perfectly aligned with the clubface.
Note that literally no one does this.
I belive Brian is trying to teach what I've said in the beginning of this post, not what I've just described.

PS: I agree with Brian that it's better to have a "matching" grip. It's easier to master control of the clubface this way.
I put matching in inverted commas because of my earlier comments -- it's not actually exactly matching.
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

New
quote:Originally posted by tongzilla
Regarding matching grip, I don't know if I'm being pedantic or we've just got different ideas, but it's never exactly matching! It's always more closed relative to the clubface. For evidence, just look at the photo of Brian himself in 'PIC 6' in his Never Slice Again Article (http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=222)
As you can see, the leading edge (not top edge) is slightly more closed relative to his flat left wrist.

I've also discovered the following, which I'm sure Brian knows about already!
Open the fingers of your left hand and have it vertical (so not rotated or turned) relative to the clubface and not gripping the club.
Your flat left wrist should be exactly parallel to the leading edge of the clubface. That's what I call a 'matching left wrist'.
Now maintaining this exact condition, curl your fingers around the grip (which is placed slightly under the heel pad as per usual).
Your left wrist is now slightly turned!
In other words, the clubface is more closed relative to your left wrist.
The more you grip it under the heelpad (more Accumulator #3), the more closed the clubface will be relative to your left wrist.

So if you wanted to really have your left wrist parallel to the clubface, then your need to start off with your left wrist turned (i.e. very weak), so when you actually put your fingers around the club, it will be vertical and perfectly aligned with the clubface.
Note that literally no one does this.
I belive Brian is trying to teach what I've said in the beginning of this post, not what I've just described.

PS: I agree with Brian that it's better to have a "matching" grip. It's easier to master control of the clubface this way.
I put matching in inverted commas because of my earlier comments -- it's not actually exactly matching.
Click to expand...

Good post Tong.

That relates to some of the things I was talking to you about....with grip types/flat left wrists/the definition of "flat."

I've also wondered about when instructors talk about a "matching" clubface to the left arm (usually is pointed out at the top of the swing)...it does look closed.

Maybe Brian will fill us in...
 
vjcapron

vjcapron

New
quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

quote:Originally posted by brianman

One the first point Leo, you are right AND wrong.

The clubface should NEVER be closed at the top...I said more closed....;)

One the grip thought....Absolutely most players grip it "non-matching."

I just think SLICERS and HACKERS improve faster SOMETIMES with a matching grip.
Click to expand...

Yes it is more closed. You said:
quote:Originally posted by brianman


Hooks REQUIRE closed faces....
Click to expand...
;)

Regarding matching grip, I don't know if I'm being pedantic or we've just got different ideas, but it's never exactly matching! It's always more closed relative to the clubface. For evidence, just look at the photo of Brian himself in 'PIC 6' in his Never Slice Again Article (http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=222)
As you can see, the leading edge (not top edge) is slightly more closed relative to his flat left wrist.

I've also discovered the following, which I'm sure Brian knows about already!
Open the fingers of your left hand and have it vertical (so not rotated or turned) relative to the clubface and not gripping the club.
Your flat left wrist should be exactly parallel to the leading edge of the clubface. That's what I call a 'matching left wrist'.
Now maintaining this exact condition, curl your fingers around the grip (which is placed slightly under the heel pad as per usual).
Your left wrist is now slightly turned!
In other words, the clubface is more closed relative to your left wrist.
The more you grip it under the heelpad (more Accumulator #3), the more closed the clubface will be relative to your left wrist.

So if you wanted to really have your left wrist parallel to the clubface, then your need to start off with your left wrist rolled (i.e. very weak), so when you actually put your fingers around the club, it will be vertical and perfectly aligned with the clubface.
Note that literally no one does this.
I belive Brian is trying to teach what I've said in the beginning of this post, not what I've just described.

PS: I agree with Brian that it's better to have a "matching" grip. It's easier to master control of the clubface this way.
I put matching in inverted commas because of my earlier comments -- it's not actually exactly matching.
Click to expand...

Rick Smith talked a lot about grips and compatible variations in a seminar entitled "Teaching the Highly Skilled Player" at the 1993 or 1994 PGA Teaching and Coaching Summit in New Orleans.

I'll dumb it down for now, but in the video he basically states that strong left hand grip is compatible with a cupped left wrist at the top, and likewise, a weak left hand grip matches with a bowed left wrist at the top. In this video he states that "Freddy wouldn't be Freddy if he was bowed at the top", and that "we wouldn't ever have heard of Corey Pavin if he was cupped at the top".

This is by far the best instruction seminar I have ever seen and I encourage all of you to try to find a copy and review it. Smith reviews a bunch of swings from Tour players of the 1990s and describes why they work.
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
you shouldn't be looking at the leading edge of the clubface, it's too hard to decipher sometimes. You should look at the SCORELINES of the club. This gives multiple parallel references as to where the clubface is in relation to the left forearm at the top.
 
M

MizunoJoe

New
quote:Originally posted by brianman

Another WORTHLESS posed position.

Am I the only guy who can pose?
Click to expand...

They're ALL worthless.

No one can accurately pose at that point in a dynamic swing - for one thing, how do you statically load the shaft?
 
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