Not 100% Golfing Machine? (now with Manzella BLOG)

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Steve Khatib

Steve Khatib

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gmbtempe said:
I think that is a gross generalization and not my experience at all...in fact I was kind of put off that the TGM AI I was was not using more technical information....the lessons seemed all to general to me.
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Ok then, I used to think the same way, then I actually started to evaluate the data. Those that went to AI's for lessons and those that did'nt. I was shocked that an extremely high percentage of students that went to AI's didnt get better period!

I would be interested to hear anyones experiences with AI's or non AI's? Without naming any names.

I mean really at the end of the day you just have to be able to teach regardless of the your certificates hanging on the wall. I found the GTE the best for just that: making teachers teach better or actually just see someone improve without bastardisation for the first time.
 
Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

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Steve Khatib said:
Ok then, I used to think the same way, then I actually started to evaluate the data. Those that went to AI's for lessons and those that did'nt. I was shocked that an extremely high percentage of students that went to AI's didnt get better period!

I would be interested to hear anyones experiences with AI's or non AI's? Without naming any names.

I mean really at the end of the day you just have to be able to teach regardless of the your certificates hanging on the wall. I found the GTE the best for just that: making teachers teach better or actually just see someone improve without bastardisation for the first time.
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Brian is a TGM AI. I know he's told me before that much of the stuff he was teaching 4 years ago makes him want to vomit today, but I get the feeling that he was, by and large, able to improve golfers that came to him for lessons. And I could be wrong, but I'm guessing 4-5 years ago he wasn't using a lot of TGM terminology with every student that came to him for a lesson.

That's my experience with TGM AI's. You usually need to pry TGM talk and terminology from them.

And I would say the majority of them improve their students as well. I've also known some TGM AI's that don't improve their students and can't break 80 themselves. There are lesser of those guys than the good ones that improve students.






3JACK
 
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ej20

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Bonesy said:
I got really lost in the book last year. The book is very "hands" oriented. The last thing a high HC needs is a book about "hands" and planes. Brian's site helped my focus on pivot first and my handicap came down as a result. It is too easy to lose the forest for the trees with the book.
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The hands do need to be educated but my beef is the TGM preferred hands controlled pivot concept.Direct your hands to an aiming point and you will get a great pivot by default.What a joke.Just about every great player start their downswing with the lower body pivot while the hands and club are still going back.
 
Steve Khatib

Steve Khatib

Super Moderator
Richie3Jack said:
Brian is a TGM AI. I know he's told me before that much of the stuff he was teaching 4 years ago makes him want to vomit today, but I get the feeling that he was, by and large, able to improve golfers that came to him for lessons. And I could be wrong, but I'm guessing 4-5 years ago he wasn't using a lot of TGM terminology with every student that came to him for a lesson.

That's my experience with TGM AI's. You usually need to pry TGM talk and terminology from them.

And I would say the majority of them improve their students as well. I've also known some TGM AI's that don't improve their students and can't break 80 themselves. There are lesser of those guys than the good ones that improve students.






3JACK
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Richie I hear you, but you have to be able to teach golf, wether you are an AI or not; that is my point.
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I'll bet ej20 knows this but if given another chance to edit would change the terminology. Good find on the video. Ej's terms are the common way of expressing that but it is true that is not an accurate way of describing it.
 
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drewitgolf

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Steve Khatib said:
Ok then, I used to think the same way, then I actually started to evaluate the data. Those that went to AI's for lessons and those that did'nt. I was shocked that an extremely high percentage of students that went to AI's didnt get better period!
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You have data regarding this? Where did you get this data? Please define extremely high for us.
 
Steve Khatib

Steve Khatib

Super Moderator
drewitgolf said:
You have data regarding this? Where did you get this data? Please define extremely high for us.
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I will answer this as best as possible without ofending anyone: Taking into account obviously these are small numbers 76% of students that I taught (having kept this data on my Customer Relationship Management system) that had had lessons from AI's had not concept other than trying to do some goofy method. Ofcourse non AI's student basically all had no idea about golf and ball flight issues etc.

Again what I am saying is it is not about being an AI(although this may help you a lot) it's about being able to teach golf!
 
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drewitgolf

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Steve Khatib said:
You are right. But, what is 100% tgm?

I mean most of those guys:
-cant get the student to hit it better
-quote the book all day long and it is not relevant to the student or this puts them off the whole lesson
-teaches tgm as a method teaching tracing and pointing with a tripod to all, wether they need it or not
-is dogmatic about their golf knowledge and only teaches one pattern
-cant give a 'real world' golf lesson to Joe six pack!

Yes, they know the words in a book, but really is that teaching golf?
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Most of those guys??...quite the generalization based on "obviously these are small numbers". Currently there are only three A.I.'s in all of Australia of which you are one of them.

If you are going to bash all A.I.'s, you need a bigger sample size in your data. There are many A.I.'s that are exceptional teachers; many of them visit and post on this forum. If you are so against them, why do maintain your A.I. status?

Teaching is an art that requires a dedication to be better than anyone could ever expect you to be. Those that teach should never stop learning and I applaud you on your effort, but bashing other instructors will never help you reach that goal.
 
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spktho

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drewitgolf said:
Most of those guys??...quite the generalization based on "obviously these are small numbers". Currently there are only three A.I.'s in all of Australia of which you are one of them.

If you are going to bash all A.I.'s, you need a bigger sample size in your data. There are many A.I.'s that are exceptional teachers; many of them visit and post on this forum. If you are so against them, why do maintain your A.I. status?

Teaching is an art that requires a dedication to be better than anyone could ever expect you to be. Those that teach should never stop learning and I applaud you on your effort, but bashing other instructors will never help you reach that goal.
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Is it still "bashing" if what he said is true?
 
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ej20

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dannyc said:
you sure about that?
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kFj3-N9Jg8[/media]
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Hands and club still going back is probably the wrong terminology but Brian did not refute the fact that the lower body is what starts the swing.He just described what happens in more detail.
 
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ej20

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I'd love to see the data concerning TGM based instructors versus the rest.Do they really get better long term results for their students?

I just don't like the over focus on the hands especially for the full swing.I often hear the complaint on many forums.They get taught a chip shot where the left wrist remains flat throughout and the hands continue to lead the clubhead to the finish.It looks contrived but the student feels a forward leaning shaft impact for the first time and is initially impressed.Now the complaint.If I only I could do that on my full swing.

Some talented students probably can but lets face it....talented students will get better with any half decent instruction.
 
Matt Bryda

Matt Bryda

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They get taught a chip shot where the left wrist remains flat throughout and the hands continue to lead the clubhead to the finish
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ej20, What if during the process of learning the hands things the student learns to do some other things that may help his full swing?

Just a thought.

Matt
 
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ej20

New
sideyard said:
ej20, What if during the process of learning the hands things the student learns to do some other things that may help his full swing?

Just a thought.

Matt
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This is my opinion only but I think if the student tries to get a forward leaning shaft at impact like he does with a TGM chip shot with "educated" hands,it will make his throwaway worse on the full swing.The hands are simply not strong enough to hold lag on a full swing.Easy to hold lag with the hands on a chip or even perhaps an easy half swing.

The full swing is full of opposites.The harder you try to get your hands in front of the ball at impact,the more you will throw it away.If your mind is in your hands,what happens to your pivot?

Just a thought also.
 
Matt Bryda

Matt Bryda

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If your mind is in your hands,what happens to your pivot?
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For me,

It helped to learn the pivot seperately from the hands/arms at least at first.
The better the pivot gets the better my hands/arms do what I want them to.

Matt
 
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drewitgolf

New
spktho said:
Is it still "bashing" if what he said is true?
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The "if" is too subjective. There are a lot of reason there could be a breakdown between teacher and student: information base being just one of them.

My personal opinion is that golf does not lend itself to "trash talking" the way other sports do (basketball for instance). Could you imagine saying to an opponent or fellow competitor that you just met, "you suck, you can't play at all, I am going to kick your butt", after they just hit a bad shot? Golf has a certain etiquette that separates itself from other sports. Picture a golf instructor giving a presentation to his fellow instructors. If he or she begins to "bad mouthing" a fellow instructor that they don't know what they are doing, they probably won't go far in this business.

Have good information, be able to communicate it effectively, motivate your students, and be able to market yourself in a positive light so when opportunity comes knocking you can answer.
 
gmbtempe

gmbtempe

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ej20 said:
This is my opinion only but I think if the student tries to get a forward leaning shaft at impact like he does with a TGM chip shot with "educated" hands,it will make his throwaway worse on the full swing.The hands are simply not strong enough to hold lag on a full swing.Easy to hold lag with the hands on a chip or even perhaps an easy half swing.

The full swing is full of opposites.The harder you try to get your hands in front of the ball at impact,the more you will throw it away.If your mind is in your hands,what happens to your pivot?

Just a thought also.
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I could be totally wrong but hands aim but the pivot delivers in TGM teaching, are you not supposed to use your pivot?
 
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