Not 100% Golfing Machine? (now with Manzella BLOG)

[roll - gybe]

I will answer this as best as possible without ofending anyone: Taking into account obviously these are small numbers 76% of students that I taught (having kept this data on my Customer Relationship Management system) that had had lessons from AI's had not concept other than trying to do some goofy method. Ofcourse non AI's student basically all had no idea about golf and ball flight issues etc.

Again what I am saying is it is not about being an AI(although this may help you a lot) it's about being able to teach golf!

Decent discussion going on here. Just want to point out this statistic is biased by negative selection. I catch your drift though.

 

[ralphyp]

The "if" is too subjective. There are a lot of reason there could be a breakdown between teacher and student: information base being just one of them.

My personal opinion is that golf does not lend itself to "trash talking" the way other sports do (basketball for instance). Could you imagine saying to an opponent or fellow competitor that you just met, "you suck, you can't play at all, I am going to kick your butt", after they just hit a bad shot? Golf has a certain etiquette that separates itself from other sports. Picture a golf instructor giving a presentation to his fellow instructors. If he or she begins to "bad mouthing" a fellow instructor that they don't know what they are doing, they probably won't go far in this business.

Have good information, be able to communicate it effectively, motivate your students, and be able to market yourself in a positive light so when opportunity comes knocking you can answer.

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, as a Professional (not golf) in the state of New York, there is a "Cannon of Ethics" we subscribe to and bad mouthing a fellow professional is considered taboo. I would hope golf professionals would have a similar "Canon of Ethics". The Golf Pros I deal with never have anything bad to say about their peers (at least not in public), and it's part of the reason I deal with them. They let their work speak for itself. I consider that part of being a Professional.
Ralph

 

[trickyric67]

I am not a proffesional nor am I an epidemiologist (study of numbers), but I am a golf junkie lesson freak and I have taken lessons from over 40 teachers with 22 being from the top 100 list. Having stated that I have taken lessons from 3 TGM AI's, Brian Manzella, Michael Jacobs and Martin Hall and I have to say that in the short time I sepnt with them I learned more than with the other top teachers.
BTW I was a D2 college golfer and past the PAT back in 1986 so I am no hack.
I find that the TGM guys are much more studied in the physiology of the golf swing and while they may not be perfect they have certainly made clear sense of what they were teaching.
JMHO
Ric

 

[Brian Manzella]

BLOG: TGM based vs. TGM educated vs. Non-TGM educated Instructors - by Brian Manzella

People ask me all the time to recommend a teacher when I do not have a Manzella Academy Instructor in their area.

I have ten Manzella Academy Instructors, and I have about ten other guys that I would recommend.

Beyond that, there are the folks that came to GTE and passed their basic test, who I know for a fact, know something about golf.

Let's say half of those folks are very good teachers.

There are probably another dozen or so folks I know of, that can teach a lick.

That's it.

Fifty or so really good teachers to my knowledge, and folks, to be brutally honest, I am stretching the term "really good teacher" to the very limit.

I have been in the golf business over 30 years, and I have taught for 27. I started going to see world-class instructors when I started with Ben Doyle in 1987, and I am among only a a handful of gluttons-for-punishment that have attended every National PGA Teaching and Coaching Summit, and the only person on earth to attend all of those, all of the TGM summits, the three MIT summits, and both National AMF Summits.

I have heard dozens of supposedly "world-class" teachers talk about the golf swing and teaching it to folks, and I've seen 30+ of the "top 100" teach live.

During all that time and travel, I have seen way more "name" teachers who are downright poor, than I have seen that are pretty good.

And, I'll say the same for those who were just talking about it. More media created empty suits than those filled with useful information.

If that offends someone, I am really sorry. I got in this business to be the best, and the only reason I go out of town to watch and listen is to learn something.

But, I've done way too little of that at these venues.

I have no problem with saying a heated competitor is good at what they do, and I do it all the time.

So what is a golfer to do?

Well, if you study the golf swing, and you are not living under a rock, you will stumble on The Golfing Machine. You will also stumble on Search for the Perfect Swing, and The Physics of Golf.

And you don't have to dig too far to run into the D-Plane, and all the great ball-flight information supplied by the TrackMan folks.

There is much to be learned from all three.

More total useful information in The Golfing Machine. More accurate science in The Physics of Golf. Better reading material in Search for the Perfect Swing. Better ball-flight information from TrackMan.

So, you might think that folks who have studied all four sources would know more than those who haven't.

They might.

But that doesn't mean they can TEACH better.

Someone who is a TGM Authorized Instructor and has studied all the above should be smarter yet. Right?

That doesn't guarantee at thing about their actual TEACHING ABILTY either.

Some AI's can teach really well. Some, not so well.

Some GTE test passers can, some can't.

Some with red hair are really good, others, not so much.

Teaching is an art, and a science.

It requires communication skills, psychology, intelligence, experience, and a great eye.

It requires the ability to change approaches on the run, and adapt to weather, noise, personalities, wind conditions, etc.

There is no place on earth to learn to do all of that.

And if there was, you STILL might only have a decent instructor at the end of the program.

And that is the facts, Jack.

 

[trickyric67]

Bmanz,
would you say that at least the TGM or GTE trained people are armed with the information and therefore from a laymans view probably going to have a better chance to help a student than the guy hanging at the local driving range hustling for a buck?
I find that knowledge is power and that even an idiot with the the right infromation is more likely to succeed than someone shooting from the hip with any empty aresenal.
Ric

 

[Brian Manzella]

Bmanz,
would you say that at least the TGM or GTE trained people are armed with the information and therefore from a laymans view probably going to have a better chance to help a student than the guy hanging at the local driving range hustling for a buck?
I find that knowledge is power and that even an idiot with the the right infromation is more likely to succeed than someone shooting from the hip with any empty aresenal.
Ric

Yes.

So here is my list.

1st Choice - Manzella Academy Instructor
2nd Choice - Manzella Recommended Instructor
3rd Choice - PGA, AMF, GTE, TGM AI
4th Choice - PGA, GTE, TGM AI
5th Choice - PGA, TGM AI or PGA GTE
6th Choice - PGA
7th Choice - Random Manzella Forum Member

(Might need to swap 6 & 7 )

 

[Matt Bryda]

Brian,

What is a way to become involved with the AMF group. Do you have to be invited to become a member?

Matt

 

[Scott Fossum]

I am an AMF member and you must be invited to join. I attended the AMF Instructor Summit in Chicago last fall and enjoyed speaking with other teachers more than the actual presentations. There were some good moments, much more than the PGA Summits (very dissapointing in my opinion) but not full of great information. It seems that most teachers just dig up the same old bones and move them to a different graveyard. Check out any golf magazine and you"ll see the same old recycled tips every month. That's why I enjoy this forum, lots of discussions that are helpful. I also agree with Brian that teaching is both an art and a science. Knowing all the technical therioes is vital but communication is the key. After spending 8 hours a day on the lesson tee in the hot sun for the last 15 years I've learned that it's not what the teacher knows that's important, it's what the student knows.

 

[birdie_man]

I could be totally wrong but hands aim but the pivot delivers in TGM teaching, are you not supposed to use your pivot?

I'm not sure I agree with ej20. Or at least when I try to move my hands more in front of the ball and have more shaft lean at impact that's exactly what happens.

Pretty normal process:

1. Before hitting a shot you have an idea and a feel of where you want your hands to travel.

2. It would not be at all unorthodox and probably would be optiMUM to try and accomplish a lot of the HOW of 1. with your pivot.

 

[greenfree]

This is my opinion only but I think if the student tries to get a forward leaning shaft at impact like he does with a TGM chip shot with "educated" hands,it will make his throwaway worse on the full swing.The hands are simply not strong enough to hold lag on a full swing.Easy to hold lag with the hands on a chip or even perhaps an easy half swing.

The full swing is full of opposites.The harder you try to get your hands in front of the ball at impact,the more you will throw it away.If your mind is in your hands,what happens to your pivot?

Just a thought also.

Not exactly true. They have throwaway because no teacher including themselves have taken the time to show how the clubface contacts the ball,and how you maintain compression all the way from the top to and through impact to low point. Most don't even know how this happens.

They think do this ,do that position and it's just going to happen, maybe, but by the looks of 99% of golfers highly unlikely. People throw the face/club/clubhead at the ball anywhere in the d.s. destroying compression. Why? bad pivot, maybe or maybe not.

I mean your holding the club in your hands, if your mind is in your pivot what happens to your hands? Some people have been working on the b.s./d.s. pivots for twenty yrs. or more with no improvement, never thinking geez maybe i don't know how to create impact and compression, it's a 3 way street you need both educated hands and educated body and mind.

 

[jerry1967]

Anybody in Michigan teach TGM?