Official 1st Annual Manziposium Thread (now with a dozen things that happened)

[Phil Rosenbaum]

Birdie Man, you are the man! It was great to have you at dinner and spend some time with you in the van and hotel as well.

That said, It was certain that the practical side was needed, maybe. I do however think that in this particular setting, it was very important to focus solely on the information. As you may recall, there was only one question that stumped the expert panel. Pretty impressive I do believe.

That said, it was a great day for golf, and those whom were not willing to make the trip because they already know it all or have their own scientists missed out. The panel was as objective as expected and certainly did not shy away from any questions.

I know that I will be changing some things in my approach based on what I learned, some things were shown to not work and yet some things were validated. At the end of the day, the willingness to change based on science is necessary in this biz. My students will benefit.

The end of junk science is quickly approaching.

The bottom line is, sometimes the truth hurts.

 

[Frans@France]

second time someone mentioned "a question that created silence". Could we mortals als be know with that question? please

 

[Phil Rosenbaum]

Waiting for the video ....its not a secret, just can not remember.

 

[birdie_man]

I was particularly proud of when I asked Dr. Neal "Does the right leg drive the hip turn, or does the left hip pull." He concurred that the right leg drives and the idea of a left hip pull is faulty.

Shear force is our friend.

I think I like it.

All I know is when I try Ben Hogan's tip: shaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnk.

I am sure it contributes...when I do it actively though: (see above)

A couple. David Lee was there from Gravity golf. Nice guy and well spoken.

Ya Dave seemed nice. I thought he was Ben Doyle at first...!

Well lets just say sheer force applied to the ground by the back foot is important according to the bio mechanics. That makes a straightened right leg NON-optimal, and the idea of falling to the left also non-optimal. Possible yes, but from a kinetic sense not desirable.

I didn't catch that so well Steve...I am unsure I am with you regardless though.

What about the "run up"?

Falling left on purpose? (active) Or falling left i.e. "counter-falling left"...?

I honestly don't know at this point.

Oh boy, LOL. Based on what he says about the golf swing, there must have been huge issues. His presentation has a beautiful array of "intelligent sounding" things about the way the brain works mixed with completely mistaken assumptions about the basic laws of physics. And, it's all delivered with a kind of "aw shucks, I'm just talkin' good ol' country common sense" type of speak.

That's not to say he can't get some people hitting the ball better. I think he does well with a lot of students.

I don't know a lot about his stuff but I'm gonna give it a look and most likely a shot. Like everything.

I noticed with Mr. Lee that he is very selective with his words. Like Brian.

Was there any discussion of Jay Z and the Wu Tang, along with Warren Buffet and Malcolm X?






3JACK

Mortal Kombat Ultra??

There's a big machine in the sky...!!

A lot of what I got from the Summit was that any philosophy that has an extreame inflexible agenda is looking for trouble. Golf contains an awful lot of grey area. If someone claims "zero" head movement other than head pivot, only 100% left or 100% right side participation and not an ounce of combination from either, clubshaft flex has "no" influence on impact conditions........I could go on. Golf is not a subject that all areas can be neatly tagged as absolute and without some variation. Golf is Art.

Oh yes. Great post.

 

[birdie_man]

Birdie Man, you are the man! It was great to have you at dinner and spend some time with you in the van and hotel as well.

Word man. Likewise BTW.

That said, It was certain that the practical side was needed, maybe. I do however think that in this particular setting, it was very important to focus solely on the information. As you may recall, there was only one question that stumped the expert panel. Pretty impressive I do believe.

That said, it was a great day for golf, and those whom were not willing to make the trip because they already know it all or have their own scientists missed out. The panel was as objective as expected and certainly did not shy away from any questions.

I know that I will be changing some things in my approach based on what I learned, some things were shown to not work and yet some things were validated. At the end of the day, the willingness to change based on science is necessary in this biz. My students will benefit.

The end of junk science is quickly approaching.

The bottom line is, sometimes the truth hurts.

Word.

Golf teaching needs competition.....uh oh.....guess who...

 

[birdie_man]

I learned quite a bit...too much to take in all at once. (esp. being less detail-oriented than some) This tape will need a solid lookover.

Now guarding against Over-doing...

I think the key may be to think about it only about half of the time...

Off to golf.

 

[Dariusz J.]

NO PARTICULAR ORDER....

1. Aaron Zick's new thoracic spine-reative to the swing plane theory.

2. Aaron Zick's observation on the relatively small movement of the right arm relative to the right shoulder.

3. Paul Wood's assertion that NOBODY angle hinges for any length of time.

4. Zick and Wood's assertion that the top of the D-Plane influence from the clubface is mid-impact interval.

5. Zick, Wood and Neal all agreeing that Pushing and Pulling is not only possible at the same time, but necessarily optimal for maximum distance.

6. Rob Neal's stellar explanations of why the golfer NEEDS TO get light on the left foot on the backswing, to optimize power through sheer and ground forces.

7. Zick, Wood and Neal all agreeing on parametric acceleration as a means of adding additional clubhead speed.

8. Zick, Wood and Neal all agreeing that the "Geometry of the Circle" was not even close to being correct.

9. Neal's explanation of why some pivot slack is needed at the top of the backswing.

10. Wood's explanation of how shaft bowing, and forward flexing effected VSP.

11. Neal showing that REAL PIVOT CENTERS could be outside the body, and the centers being used by some were arbitrary at best.

12. Tumble Torque is as real as rain...Zick, Wood and Neal all agreeing.


...much more to come....

A couple of really good points there. I would change few of them for much more important, but judging from this list - the Antisummit might proved to be very important measure to find objective truth.

Cheers

 

[bax1865]

Birdie Man, you are the man! It was great to have you at dinner and spend some time with you in the van and hotel as well.

.

That maybe more info than we need to know!! Not that there is anything wrong with it!!!

Birdie Man had the BEST intro to the attendees I have ever heard! Keeping it real!

 

[birdie_man]

That maybe more info than we need to know!! Not that there is anything wrong with it!!!

Birdie Man had the BEST intro to the attendees I have ever heard! Keeping it real!

Lol thanks...I guess it is what it is eh.

Would like to have the credentials of about anyone else in the room no doubt...

 

[EdStraker]

"Aaron Zick's new thoracic spine-reative to the swing plane theory"

Is this related to Dr. Gracovetsky's spine engine theory?

 

[Ringer]

I didn't catch that so well Steve...I am unsure I am with you regardless though.

What about the "run up"?

Falling left on purpose? (active) Or falling left i.e. "counter-falling left"...?

I honestly don't know at this point.

If the point of the full swing is to propel the golf ball as far as possible then we want to generate as much energy as possible. The shear force that the ground offers to resist the motion of our legs provides an energy source to start the kinetic chain. We could start the chain from a different location such as the hips by standing on one leg. But why start the chain higher up and later? You could also just start the link at the shoulders and not do any hip turn. Again why would you want to and bypass the possible energy sources of the legs and hips?

Just falling to the left would provide no energy from the legs but you would still get the kinetic energy of the horizontal weight shift. I just question why you would want to reduce the number of places you can accumulate energy from.

 

[Damon Lucas]

If the point of the full swing is to propel the golf ball as far as possible then we want to generate as much energy as possible. The shear force that the ground offers to resist the motion of our legs provides an energy source to start the kinetic chain. We could start the chain from a different location such as the hips by standing on one leg. But why start the chain higher up and later? You could also just start the link at the shoulders and not do any hip turn. Again why would you want to and bypass the possible energy sources of the legs and hips?

Just falling to the left would provide no energy from the legs but you would still get the kinetic energy of the horizontal weight shift. I just question why you would want to reduce the number of places you can accumulate energy from.

It was great to have you at the anti summit, Steve!

I thought you asked a lot of intelligent and thoughtful questions and you contributed much to the success of the event.

Thanks, Damon

 

[Ringer]

Thank you Damon! It was great to finally meet you, Finney, Jacobs, BMan and the others. I learned a lot of great things, it reinforced some ideas, and it helped me toss out some old notions.

 

[lookingtolearn]

I know that I will be changing some things in my approach based on what I learned, some things were shown to not work and yet some things were validated. At the end of the day, the willingness to change based on science is necessary in this biz. My students will benefit.

What types of things will you change?

 

[Phil Rosenbaum]

I will be changing my thoughts on impact and separation. Now knowing that ball does not start mostly where the club is pointed at separation, but where the club is pointed at max. compression.

I guess the myth of angular momentum is out the window, but I never taught it anyway.

I will look into helping my students make the most dynamic backswing available to them. I taught it that way, but did occasionaly prescribe a somewhat centered pivot, NOT NO MO.

Understanding that the golfer can not do anything to change the flight of the ball while the ball is on the face.

Club fittings and the understanding of how the club works.

Kinetic chain sequencing and stretch perameters.

And for sure, not ever saying HEAVY HIT again!!!!!!
.......this kinda feels like and interview but I should just say, it was a can not miss event and I was very open going into it.

 

[lookingtolearn]

I will be changing my thoughts on impact and separation. Now knowing that ball does not start mostly where the club is pointed at separation, but where the club is pointed at max. compression.

I guess the myth of angular momentum is out the window, but I never taught it anyway.

I will look into helping my students make the most dynamic backswing available to them. I taught it that way, but did occasionaly prescribe a somewhat centered pivot, NOT NO MO.

Understanding that the golfer can not do anything to change the flight of the ball while the ball is on the face.

Club fittings and the understanding of how the club works.

Kinetic chain sequencing and stretch perameters.

And for sure, not ever saying HEAVY HIT again!!!!!!
.......this kinda feels like and interview but I should just say, it was a can not miss event and I was very open going into it.

Cool. Thanks for the response.

 

[Phil Rosenbaum]

Anytime....8hrs of info is tough to quickly go through and post about. I am looking forward as well.

 

[golfbulldog]

Sounds very successful!

Congratulations on pulling off this meeting. Getting a science panel together and allowing open forum for questions from guys who (in a good way) are not constrained by scientific protocol etc makes for a very productive setting - real credit to Brian (for organising - including BM crew here) but especially to the panel.

Will be buying the video to get the info as close to first hand as I can get!

Few questions based on the titbits which have already been released...

With right leg and sheer being so crucial - does it add any evidence as to why Hogan got his extra stud screwed in on the right foot - especially re. the position of that extra spike...underneath the metatarsal-phalangeal joint maybe?

What was Zick's observation about the right arm and shoulder?? (that one really wets my apetite!) Can you post the images he looked at and let us guess... "Zick has a secret...it's easy to see...if you know where to look" or something like that!

Did the gear effect (irons verus woods) get considered?

Any questions on clubhead design?

Thanks for answering if possible!

 

[Brian Manzella]

Thanks for the kind words....

Congratulations on pulling off this meeting. Getting a science panel together and allowing open forum for questions from guys who (in a good way) are not constrained by scientific protocol etc makes for a very productive setting - real credit to Brian (for organising - including BM crew here) but especially to the panel.

I was the most physically and mentally exhausting day I have ever had indoors. The scientists had a good time as well, which is saying something, and I think the three of them learned the most from the day.

Me and Mike Finney sponsored this event and we could have had a few "sponsors" helping with the costs associated with the event, but we wanted the proceedings to be a "pure" as possible.

Everyone had their shot at the panel, and some did better than others.

But EVERYONE learned something.

ANTI-SUMMIT 2 is already in the works for the east coast.

Will be buying the video to get the info as close to first hand as I can get!

The files will be shipped to me by mid-week and it will probably take about two weeks for me to get it edited and available.

With right leg and sheer being so crucial - does it add any evidence as to why Hogan got his extra stud screwed in on the right foot - especially re. the position of that extra spike...underneath the metatarsal-phalangeal joint maybe?

Absolutely.

What was Zick's observation about the right arm and shoulder?? (that one really wets my apetite!) Can you post the images he looked at and let us guess... "Zick has a secret...it's easy to see...if you know where to look" or something like that!

How far the right hand moves during the backswing and the downswing relative to the right shoulder was important, and also the upper back relative to the swing plane.

Did the gear effect (irons verus woods) get considered?

Yes.

Any questions on clubhead design?

A couple.

 

[golfbulldog]

Keep digging!

Thanks Brian, even hungrier to hear the good stuff now!

If you can keep digging into the science and bring up more gold - the Golf Channel stuff may hold you back...Strange as it may seem... their editorial board might not want someone telling them that their established staff have been getting it all wrong for a few years...

Good luck either way!